[Guard Rework] A suggestion to better balance RvR and SCs.

[peterthepan3]

The game has existed since 2007/2008. Most people playing RoR played live (I would wager) and if people still don't know the importance of using certain mechanics/skills, then there really is no hope for said people.

I echo what Wingz said and believe that blanket changes affecting ALL players because mr 2h chosen slotting FO doesn't have guard on his toolbar are not warranted.

tldr; some players are just not that good/versed in the game's mechanics - or are plain ignorant to them and only intend to play how they see fit.

[Akalukz]

make guard require shield. easiest change and balance to guard.

[peterthepan3]

^ will render 2h tanks useless.

I think people need to know that not all tanks who go 2H are DPS...

[th3gatekeeper]

make guard require shield. easiest change and balance to guard.

Yeah im not opposed to this, but then you need to create more utility or some "advantages" for 2H tanks because this would frankly ruin them and make SNB the most important class in the game... Hold the line already requires a shield...

Peter, I never played live and I am here. I know MANY players who didnt play LIVE. Ive talked to many MDPS who didnt know guard had a range, Ive talked to many 2H tanks who say stuff like "I dont get healed" so they dont ever guard or guys that throw guard and dont stay within 30 feet of their "guard-ee" Ive seen it all man...

The big issue is lack of in game support for guard. There is nothing that really shows you that you are in range of guard. No animation, no "buff" in fact the "guard buff" even stays on your character even when NOT in range of that player... So unless you actually take the time to test, the average player will run around and not even notice they arent actually guarding anyone... Also, this isnt Warhammer, its return of reckoning as you all know, its a different game based on the same principles however different. If this game wants to appeal to more players, it needs to evolve and make things more user friendly.

Now we can agree to disagree on the damage bonus for guard thing. However I think SOMETHING needs to be done to support guard. Great steps would be - creating an animation that shows whenever in guard range - this would be useful both for offense and defense being able to tell who is guarding who. Another would be to not have the "guard buff" show on your character or the person you are guarding unless you are actually within 30 feet of that player.

I hesitate to suggest bumping guard to 40feet or 50feet since then it becomes impossible to punt guard away... but even that would be another step towards helping newer players and balancing games....

One of the biggest advantages a premade has over PUGs is guarding. The tanks actually do this, in PUG games, people dont really have much incentive to work together. Why do you not see more assisting? Because there is no in game support for this aside from creating a macro and spamming it - which is something that is not "instinctive" for a new player or someone who didnt play "good ol live". Why do we see so many tanks NOT guard? Because it actually hurts their personal character for the benefit of the group.

All I am suggesting is guard needs to have some type of rework so that its more instinctive, better tells and possible a more impactful situation for BOTH players - not just the tank sacrificing his hitpoints for the sake of the DPS class... I mean ive thought of other solutions as well such as the tank getting "credit" for a % of the damage the "guardee" does on the total damage charts... This way a KOBS who guards a slayer spamming AOE instead of the match showing 200k for the slayer and 30k damage for the knight, gets credit for say 25% of the Slayers damage and now shows "80k" where the slayer shows "150k" just an idea as to how much "damage the knight contributed towards".... Anything that promotes guarding so the person (tank) guarding gets a personal benefit TO guard as well as the game making it easier to see IF he is guarding and if in range of guard etc....

We cant just say "thats not how LIVE was" etc... LIVE died...... think about that.... it DIED. This isnt live, its RoR. RoR needs to change and adapt to what players want and what competition does, otherwise it too will die.... It needs to focus on being FUN which for most people means dealing damage. The "holy trinity" with "pure" rolls is not popular these days. While its fun to create "pure" classes, people dont wanna be a pure defensive tank with little to no damage. People dont want to play a pure healer with no damage who spam heals... The majority of players want to deal damage, see big numbers, kill people.....

[Luicetarro]

The "holy trinity" with "pure" rolls is not popular these days. While its fun to create "pure" classes, people dont wanna be a pure defensive tank with little to no damage. People dont want to play a pure healer with no damage who spam heals... The majority of players want to deal damage, see big numbers, kill people.....

And you won't be able to change that. Let them play their way, grab the ones, that do look promising. Leave the rest for the slaughter.
If you want to boost a tanks damage for doing his job, do you want to boost damage for a healer, that does heal? You're promoting even more DDs that way.

I was PUGing a lot myself, using guard, using tactics that don't benefit myself, but the party I'm in. Someone noticed that, PMed me, took me for a 4man-ride. Got addicted to that, joined a guild and there I am. Not the best tank, but a tank with a purpose now, with mates, other than PUGs. *shrugs*

[peterthepan3]

I'm sorrry man but there ARE several addons that facilitate to the swapping/usage of Guard. Also good tanks in premades do not have an issue with guard swapping or guard in general, which is why I reiterate that I believe it is a L2P issue (if that comes across as rude, it is not intended)

Increasing guard's range is again an unnecessary change, and another bandaid for people who are just too lazy to learn the mechanics behind guard/download addons that would help them.

Having a damage mitigated option in scenarios is just an epeen thing and doesn't help a player become good. Anyone using scenario boards as an accurate means of gauging anything in 2016 is silleh (KBs aside!)

[th3gatekeeper]

The "holy trinity" with "pure" rolls is not popular these days. While its fun to create "pure" classes, people dont wanna be a pure defensive tank with little to no damage. People dont want to play a pure healer with no damage who spam heals... The majority of players want to deal damage, see big numbers, kill people.....

And you won't be able to change that. Let them play their way, grab the ones, that do look promising. Leave the rest for the slaughter.
If you want to boost a tanks damage for doing his job, do you want to boost damage for a healer, that does heal? You're promoting even more DDs that way.

I was PUGing a lot myself, using guard, using tactics that don't benefit myself, but the party I'm in. Someone noticed that, PMed me, took me for a 4man-ride. Got addicted to that, joined a guild and there I am. Not the best tank, but a tank with a purpose now, with mates, other than PUGs. *shrugs*

Yeah, see you are one of the few tanks that do this (like myself) and get picked up. But what happens when you are 5/5 Merc + SC weapon? You get bored or want to play other classes. So you roll a Mara or CHoppa or any number of non-tank classes and then you feel the PAIN. Its why I end up never playing other classes because good tanks that guard are few and far between. This is what I want to fix. I want PUG tanks to have incentive to guard, so that when you do play alts, or dont have a ton of people online, you can still do RvR or SCs and people will actually GIVE guard who arent tanks... They will actually try to stay near you... You are looking at this from the wrong perspective IMO and saying "leave them for the slaughter" is frankly not going to do the game any favors. Your post is exactly why it needs change.

You did your job, were noticed and picked up by a group that my guess is steamrolled over PUGs, which is fun. Ok, now swap to a MDPS class, play during NA hours where there arent many good players and do RvR or SCs, count how FEW times you actually get guard... its pathetic. I stand by my perspective that guard needs to be more intuative, it needs to provide some "selfish" motoviations to the person guarding so he has big incentive to guard rather than just "it helps my team" Support classes can be fun for a short time, but by and large not a large population likes support classes.

You mention "do you want to boost damage for a healer, that does heal?" In fact many DD abilities will heal defensive targets for a portion or all of damage dealt. So many healers DO have that and frankly, yes, I would support a small rework in which hybrid heal/dps classes were more valuable. In which it were easier to play that roll and actually have it be a support roll rather than a selfish roll. I think thats what it boils down to... I mean you dont need to look further than the melee DoK population to prove this. Its probably one of THE most popular classes because its a DPS/Heal/Support class that can help heal the group and do damage. DPS AMs are another one... Do good damage + can heal a decent amount. The "holy trinity" model frankly has come and gone and while I appreciate RoR from a balance standpoint in that each class has weaknesses, it can make the game VERY dull during low population times (like NA hours) where its hard to get competent players to work together (especially in RvR).

The best types of systems IMO are mutually beneficial relationships. Where a healer has benefit to healing an ally - in an AM/Shamans case, their mechanic is a decent example where they can get insta-cast damage spells by healing a bit. They have DD abilities that heal defensive targets, so if you want to play that way, you can. I would even encourage it to go a step further and have that mechanic increase the speed AND "severity" of those spells, so that a healing AM, who throws out 3-4 heals can now throw a nice hitting damage encounter in between. Making it feel FUN.

But the same holds for a tank. What is his personal benefit that makes it FUN to guard someone? As of right now, the "fun" derived from this is just a win, but speaking from experience and someone who has farmed over 1700 emblems, it gets old quick. What is FUN is getting on my Mara and seeing big numbers and a ton of quick numbers hitting the screen and seeing someones HP drop to 60% in 2 seconds. Its why we have so many DPS classes and very few "pure" support classes. Its why we have so many hybrid rolls like "DPS tanks" "Melee DOKs" "DPS AM/Shammys" etc. I think those rolls should fit in, I think the hybrid should have its place and the way to boost "working together" is to provide a mutually beneficial relationship. As of right now, the player that heals, gets nothing aside from seeing his DPS class kill everything. Living vicariously through him, same with the tank classes. "Supporting" the DPS, but living vicariously through him as the DPS class is the "spear point" where as the tank/healers are just the "shaft" of the spear to help it reach its target....

Look around at all the other games... They all have adopted this kind of "hybrid" rolls that allow classes to do both - because its FUN. Some people will say they like playing support classes, great! Stick to your pure roll. However almost EVERYONE I have known that plays support, gets bored and wants to roll a DPS alt to kill people...

[th3gatekeeper]

I'm sorrry man but there ARE several addons that facilitate to the swapping/usage of Guard. Also good tanks in premades do not have an issue with guard swapping or guard in general, which is why I reiterate that I believe it is a L2P issue (if that comes across as rude, it is not intended)

Increasing guard's range is again an unnecessary change, and another bandaid for people who are just too lazy to learn the mechanics behind guard/download addons that would help them.

Having a damage mitigated option in scenarios is just an epeen thing and doesn't help a player become good. Anyone using scenario boards as an accurate means of gauging anything in 2016 is silleh (KBs aside!)

And I guess this is the difference between us. I personally am trying to "raise the floor" on the skill side of things becase SO many players are just bad and refuse to listen and refuse to play together. I see it probably one in 3 or 4 games where a 2H chosen sits in a group BY HIMSELF for no reason. So rather than just sitting back on the forums, saying L2P and then only doing stuff in premades. Id rather raise the skill floor, allowing PUG games to be more competitive. Allowing PUG RVR to be more competitive by increasing incentives for players to work together and not having this "me me me" mentality and the only way I see that will happen is by creating a mutually beneficial relationship. Where both parties benefit from things - not just the DPS class who gets supported.... So I think its a difference of opinion. I dont want PUGs to just be canon fodder.

[peterthepan3]

The game itself is very, very easy to learn and come to grips with. There are a plethora of different guilds/groups organising on a daily basis, there are hundreds of people advertising in /5 for 'LFM SC Premade', there are guides on youtube and on here and videos of people showcasing guard/their respective classes in WBs/6v6/scenarios.

The opportunities and facilities to better oneself are present. The problem is that part of the community who seem intent on playing the game how they see fit, at the expense of their realm/group in scenarios.

I think the very fact that most people who have put in the graft and know how to play the game have very few complaints about guard is indicative of my previous assertion (that it is a L2P issue).

I'm all for leading a horse to water, but holding the bowl of water in your own hands and letting the horse drink from it, only to spit it out after? Nah.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Pugs only profit from the suggested changes if they do what they are supposed to do (assist, guardrange, heal etc.), which is exactly not what they are doing. Otherwise we wouldnt have a "buff pug"-thread every second day.

Several games with far more ressources already accepted the existance of an "elo-hell", why cant we?
On the other hand RoR has a pretty small community and some pugs might be enlightened by advisors.

Attempting skill/gamemechanic changes because of an unwanted player mindset seems to be the wrong approach.