2H and s/b tanks - defence/dps comparison

[Annaise16]

DT increases your groups dps by about 5% or 6%, depending on initial crit rates and group make-up. If you are slayer-heavy, it will be less than that. Compare that t the size of the wounds debuff on arcing Swing.

I know that when people see the phrase 'extra crit', their heads explode and they think the extra crit is either awesome or terrible, depending on which end of the extra crit they happen to be. But I don't think people realise exactly how much or little benefit the extra crit is providing. DT is a good tactic for a tank for that is normally the lowest dps tank in the game. It delivers a reasonably large damage boost for the group that the kotbs would find it difficult to replicate in other ways and, in doing so, makes up for the kotbs' lack of dps. But it isn't amazing.

I took me making a BW myself to learn how dumb I was trying to justify a 2H Knight.... Atleast my Chosen has a viable 2H tank spec. There is no such thing as a DPS tank... Its called a MDPS wanna be, and frankly, id rather have a WL or slayer in my party over a "DPS TANK" anyday....

I'm guessing your head has exploded. You have failed to distinguish between the BW's total crit rate and the extra crit chance provided by DT.

One of the benefits of DT is that it does increase the chance of a toon getting a string of crits, and this is important for BWs. But, again, this increase isn't amazing. I can provide you with a table of crit string chance versus crit rate if you would like one.

Another benefit of DT is that it applies to aoe as well as single-target damage. In some ways, this is its main benefit. Along with the toughness and resistance auras, the buff to a BWs aoe damage does make the kotbs a very good bombing tank.

[Dabbart]

If you re-read the paragraph from which you took that quote, you will see that I was referring to builds balanced between dps and defence. And the quote makes perfect sense in that context.

Oh that's fine. Not the 2nd time you've completely ignored my arguement with a hand-wave over some semantic PoS that you believe in this thread...

My point stands. You solved the question/point/topic in your initial review. Flat out. No extra bonus' from anything. No RR. No equipment. No tactics. Does the Shield give an inherent survivability advantage? Yes it does. It. Gives. Block. How you build from there is your call.

In pure DPS mode, does having a shield give you more survivability over a 2h. Exact same build, exact same equipment, exact same tactics. Yes. Does it do the same in pure Defense/utility mode? Yes. Can you build on either to be halfway decent at both? Yes. At the end of the day, does the sheer fact that you have a shield, and can therefore block, make you more survivable compared to a 2h EVERYTHING ELSE BEING EQUAL.

Yes. Everything you wrote/made after that seems silly to me.

Edit: Explan a bit sorry, I don;'t understand the need to try and balance the DPS with shield 2h. Shield gives more survival, 2h gives more DPS. WHy did you try to equalize them for the arguement?

[Annaise16]

]


Edit: Explan a bit sorry, I don;'t understand the need to try and balance the DPS with shield 2h. Shield gives more survival, 2h gives more DPS. WHy did you try to equalize them for the arguement?

Because people have been arguing, and really stating as an undoubted fact, that using a shield is an inherently superior build for a tank.

[Dabbart]

]


Edit: Explan a bit sorry, I don;'t understand the need to try and balance the DPS with shield 2h. Shield gives more survival, 2h gives more DPS. WHy did you try to equalize them for the arguement?

Because people have been arguing, and really stating as an undoubted fact, that using a shield is an inherently superior build for a tank.

...

Omfg. Am I being trolled here?

You proved.
That having a shield.
Without any other stat adjustment.
Is more survivable.
It has better defence/evasion stats.
That means, using a shield DOES infact give an inherent survival advantage.
Survival and Defense is what Tanks are for.
DPS is a Utility that not all tanks NEED to push extensively.
Shield makes Tanks Superior.


If you are not interested in Tanking, then you wont take the shield most likely. If you prefer a particular playstyle cause shields bore you, then so be it. If you want to do DPS, do your thing. That is ALL based upon your PERSONAL build and spec.

The base numbers, that you provided, show. Shield Survival>2h Survival. Survival is the name of the game for a TANK.

Edit: I am honestly thinking your just giggling on your keyboard knowing you got me.

[Annaise16]

...

Omfg. Am I being trolled here?

You proved.
That having a shield.
Without any other stat adjustment.
Is more survivable.
It has better defence/evasion stats.
That means, using a shield DOES infact give an inherent survival advantage.
Survival and Defense is what Tanks are for.
DPS is a Utility that not all tanks NEED to push extensively.
Shield makes Tanks Superior.


If you are not interested in Tanking, then you wont take the shield most likely. If you prefer a particular playstyle cause shields bore you, then so be it. If you want to do DPS, do your thing. That is ALL based upon your PERSONAL build and spec.

The base numbers, that you provided, show. Shield Survival>2h Survival. Survival is the name of the game for a TANK.

Edit: I am honestly thinking your just giggling on your keyboard knowing you got me.

Hmm... I can see that you are one of those people I referred to in my last post.

Why do you equate a tank's survivability with its worth? Surely, tanks do something other than survive.

I've played every tank in the game to level 40 except for the Black Orc. I had over 50 days played on tanks during the live game. I thought it was obvious that on a tank you spec for as much survivability as you need to support your playstyle. (This goes for all classes.) Once, you have achieved that, you spec for other things. For a tank, speccing for your requisite amount of survivability doesn't hecessarily mean using a shield.

[Dabbart]

Why do you equate "worth" to the discussion?

"worth" is an opinion. We are talking numbers. A DPS class is focus inherently upon their damage. A healer, inherently upon their healing. A tank, their survival. Hence the name Tank. Their main class ability is it take and share damage.

As you said in your OP and this last post. You can build the tank however. But. You first build it to the survival rating that you require. For boosting survival, the Shield provides better inherent bonus'.

You are attempting to use Numbers to substantiate your Opinion on "Worth". I don't know where you got Worth from in any of my posts. I never referenced anything being better to play or what is better in groups, or which particular build is superior.

On the basis of the numbers alone. Without any spec involved. For the Role of the Tank. A shield is superior.

Edit: Also, why do you make it sound like disagreeing with you is the same as being Stupid? Not so much in your remarks to me here, but to others in this thread and previous threads. They state as fact do they? We both know that they mean opinion. Very few things, outside of the hard code and math, here is Fact. Its opinion, and/or historical knowledge. There are far too many variables to consider.

Edit 2: so you See It. Your words: "I thought it was obvious that on a tank you spec for as much survivability as you need to support your playstyle" How can you not say that survivability is fundamentally important to a Tank when you believe it is the first thing you allocate resources to?

[Annaise16]

Why do you equate "worth" to the discussion?

"worth" is an opinion. We are talking numbers. A DPS class is focus inherently upon their damage. A healer, inherently upon their healing. A tank, their survival. Hence the name Tank. Their main class ability is it take and share damage.

As you said in your OP and this last post. You can build the tank however. But. You first build it to the survival rating that you require. For boosting survival, the Shield provides better inherent bonus'.

You are attempting to use Numbers to substantiate your Opinion on "Worth". I don't know where you got Worth from in any of my posts. I never referenced anything being better to play or what is better in groups, or which particular build is superior.

On the basis of the numbers alone. Without any spec involved. For the Role of the Tank. A shield is superior.

Lol. The shield provides an inherent bonus but it isn't necessary. A tank can achieve the same ends by different means if they are looking for a balanced build.

Btw, you answered your own question about equating worth with survivability. Perhaps, you should re-read your own posts.

[Ninepaces]

Hold. The. Line.

end of discussion.

[sydd]

Survival and Defense is what Tanks are for.

It's not in this game and this is evident. If it were as you say all the tank would have a defensive style of play, not offensive.
In this game a melee train of 2h BO and Chosen asphalt you in any case.

[szejoza]

tl:dr all of this

I'm currently running 'cheating' build for my kotbs for sc's being 2h tank with vigilance/max parry/10%crit tact (and all the cc I need) and guarding melee dps (WL preferably ^^).
It gives me a little bit of an advantage when together with mdps we are trying to nuke squishies down and yet I'm providing my team with some of the most important buffs KoTBS can give. The downside is my survivability but vigilance saved my life countless times and I can't imagine playing without it now (even as a snb tank). Also after few tries enemies tend to ingore me as they would waste their time on killing me with vigilance on so I get more time to roam freely and healers are not spending too much time healing me (a few hots can keep me up for long)

All of this is for sc's, I can't imagine running into orvr with this build (if I want to be suicidal ill play my slayer). HtL can be ignored in scs but it is a must in mass orvr, along with the increased survivability that shield gives you. And as was stated before - as a tank our main role is guarding important players, providing buffs/cc and not being burden on our healers, damage goes after that

So to sum it up - everything is viable as long as you know how to play it and WHERE to play it