Return of Reckoning

Problem with Vaul is its dependant on hitting a debuffed group with EoV over and over. With no gheal and the likelihood of disrupts when you really dont need them its just safer to go full dps or heal. Between swapping both targets, debuffing, trying to anticipate where a EoV is needed and watching for disrupts. All that for very underwhelming results even when it works.

Telen wrote:Problem with Vaul is its dependant on hitting a debuffed group with EoV over and over. With no gheal and the likelihood of disrupts when you really dont need them its just safer to go full dps or heal. Between swapping both targets, debuffing, trying to anticipate where a EoV is needed and watching for disrupts. All that for very underwhelming results even when it works.

Agreed on going either full DPS or Heals. I was thinking of a way to make the mechanic useful for Healing AMs (i.e. giving them a reason to use a Force spell every once in a while) and that's when i realized that if one of their healing spells built Force it would make much more sense. For example, they could spam Healing Energy and build 5 stacks of Force which would then let them use an instant group heal or big ST heal. This while being full heal spec and using nothing but heal spells.

The suggestion on Vaul came as an afterthought but works in a similar way. The AM would go full DPS and spam BE (building tranquility) which would then let them have an instant EoV. As for the debuffs? SoC is enough against pugs or for RvR, and a SM can take care of that in more serious fights. Not perfect but hey, melee-heal WP faces the same issues (parry, block, absorbs, armor, etc).

Life-tap healing needs a lot of work to make it viable of course. I think BE should heal your whole group (like WP Sigmar's Radiance) and EoV should be the big ST heal (like Divine Assault). In addition to a few other changes of course. Can't wait to discuss all of this once T4 is released.

Penril wrote:Can't wait to discuss all of this once T4 is released.

I fear this is not something we will be able to placate with t4, as far as i know, we cant create skills yet or modify the client much so most of the ways to solve lifetapping problems have to be done with existing skills. Which while it may be quite tricky, there is some work that can be done there, however will probably will have to be reverted once they are able to modify the client.

At least i know thats was the usual response before the "wait for t4".

bloodi wrote:

Penril wrote:Can't wait to discuss all of this once T4 is released.

I fear this is not something we will be able to placate with t4, as far as i know, we cant create skills yet or modify the client much so most of the ways to solve lifetapping problems have to be done with existing skills. Which while it may be quite tricky, there is some work that can be done there, however will probably will have to be reverted once they are able to modify the client.

At least i know thats was the usual response before the "wait for t4".

I really don't know what's the extent of what they can or can't do with the client/skills, which is the reason why i try to keep it simple. I had way more ideas for the AM (even a complete overhaul of the mechanic) but in the end, making a few skills build Force instead of Tranquility (or the other way around) seemed a much simpler way to actually benefit from the mechanic. So that's what i posted.

And i'm just waiting for T4 because Devs have said they won't discuss or make any balance changes until it is released. Basically, i just wanted to post my idea (before i forget about it) so i can dig it up in the future. That is, assuming some experienced Archmages think it is actually an idea worth considering.

Let me elaborate on that last sentence. I leveled all classes to rr70 on live, and currently on RoR i have 20 classes at level 35. While i'm nowhere near to being an expert on any class, i have a basic idea on all of them. So sometimes i will come up with a suggestion that makes sense in my head, but i just throw it out as brainstorming and wait for the real experts to give their feedback. Did the same thing on a Engineer thread (and some of them liked what i suggested ).

TL;DR: If someone thinks my AM suggestion is terrible, that's ok. I'm just brainstorming here.

Thinking about it this is pretty nice for AM. Might be a problem moving it to shaman. You would need the wild healing tactic to make spamming Gork'll fix it without it draining all your ap.

Dang, Penril. You really put some thought into your proposition. I especially like the spreadsheets.

Since the balance forums are a ways off, I don't see this discussion going anywhere especially productive, but I'll still talk with you a bit about your ideas, since you took the time to post them.

Penril wrote:Healing Energy now builds Force instead of Tranquility. The AM could use HE and build 5 stacks of F, and then choose to use an instant group heal, big ST-heal, rez, or a stronger Funnel Essence. These spells will now be building T, and when he has a few stacks he could use Healing Energy again, which will increase healing received on his target by 3% per Tranquility point. Keep in mind the AM has been using his mechanic AND healing the whole time.

Cleasing Light would now build Force as well, and benefit from Tranquility. So the AM could choose to build T with his other heal spells, and at 3 stacks his cleanse would affect an additional groupmate. At 5, it would affect 2 groupmates (highest number of groupmates cleansed would be 3). Since HE and CL both build Force, the AM won't be able to constantly group cleanse AND buff healing received on a target. He will have to choose one. Also, since both build F, DPS AMs won't really benefit from these changes (since all their damage spells build F as well)

I like the idea. Would Cleansing Light's change also cause Isha's Encouragement to become a 2-3 target AoE HoT? Also, how would it choose targets in the event of several eligible group members?

As for Healing Energy, it definitely needs a base cost reduction before it would be viable to spam it for any reason. With this plan, you'd have to use it five times in a row in order to get to the instant heal, and if you don't crit or, for whatever reason, don't have Wild Healing, then that comes with a steep AP cost. Don't get me wrong, I love Healing Energy, and I love me some Balanced Mending, but this change would be niche at best unless there was some way to store or save Force which didn't threaten to be undone at the first cast of a heal.

It would be cool if there was some sort of stance mechanic as well. Like if AM/Shaman had two off-GCD abilities (one for Force and one for Tranquility), which consumes your points in the relevant High Magic and then gives the player a buff which shortens the cast time or raises the effectiveness of the next eligible spell. That way, the mechanic could be made to work better on-demand. You could build 5 Force and 5 Tranquility and then use them as you needed to without having to worry about losing a stack because you needed to use a different spell for whatever reason.

Penril wrote:Why do i suggest this? Because Blessing of Grungni and Cleansing Power. Those tactics make Rune Priest + Warrior Priest an excellent healing duo. If the AM was able to buff healing received on a target, or have a semi-AoE cleanse, he could easily replace a RP or WP in a group.

Moving on to Life-Tap healing, i think Balance Essence should build T instead of F. This way, the AM could spam it (healing a groupmate) and then have a instant (or really fast) Energy of Vaul. Or he could use his other F spells and then have an instant Balance Essence. This alone won't fix Life-Tap healing, but if Expanded Control was also changed so it makes BE heal your whole group, it would certainly improve its viability by a lot.

Yeah, my first idea for a change to Vaul would have been to make Expanded Control heal the group for a little less than your defensive target. As it is, changes to the mechanic alone won't do anything for Vaul's AoE problem. It'd also be cool to see Divine Fury reworked so as to not affect lifetap abilities, but with lifetaps given a base 20-25% healing increase across the board. Then Vaul AMs and Grace WPs could potentially get use out of both their heals and their lifetaps.

Back on topic, I agree that the WP and RP have class-defining tactics in Blessing of Grungni and Cleansing Power. I think that changing the AM's mechanic to bring it in line with things that other classes have to sacrifice tactic slots for is a bit of an overreach, though. Besides, the AM has such a class-defining tactic, as well. It's just that the level cap isn't sufficient to give us Desperation yet, so AM isn't as strong as it used to be.

Even with Desperation, though, I know that a healing AM in a serious 6-man would be rare, but that's because of the shortcomings of the class itself (lack of mobile healing and weak defenses). Your changes to the mechanic do help to address the lack of mobile healing, though, so that's always a plus. Being able to spam HE and then stop briefly while kiting to get a reduced-cast heal off might give us an interesting role in such scenarios.

I think that the AM definitely needs to be looked at, don't get me wrong, but I think it would take something more than the proposed changes. Not so much more in magnitude, mind you, but more with respect to the depth with which the class needs to be changed. The mechanic is fundamentally flawed in that it requires healers to do things in a set sequence, even with your changes, and healing in this game demands the flexibility to react to a myriad of potential situations. Obviously this flexibility is threatened by adhering to a rotation.

Telen wrote:Thinking about it this is pretty nice for AM. Might be a problem moving it to shaman. You would need the wild healing tactic to make spamming Gork'll fix it without it draining all your ap.

Yeah, but that change is honestly overdue. Pass It On doesn't even compare to Wild Healing.

@ Penril - I missed the thing about increasing the healing received by your targets on top of the other changes. That seems potentially broken. Would it stack with Blessing of Grungni?

I don't think the AM needs something comparable to RP or WP, honestly. The way this game is, the best way to fix healing AM and make it more viable for serious players would be not to make it do something that another class does, but to give it something unique in itself. Your changes would definitely be nice, but if it can't AoE cleanse or buff received healing as well as WP and RP, respectively, then AM is still stuck in their shadows, so to speak. On the other side, if it does either of those things better than WP or RP, then you risk putting either of those classes into that same shadow, especially if the nerfbat is already going to fall on healing WPs to begin with.

So let's see, what else is there that could give the AM a unique role? How about a tactic or ability that reduces the damage your party takes? I don't think any of the other healers are capable of that. Another possibility could be a larger focus on absorption, which could be cool since bubbles aren't subject to heal debuffs.

Point taken. Those buffs were just an example; they could be something else (or nothing at all and just keep the benefits as "increased effectiveness" and "reduces cast time"). But making Healing Energy build Force instead of Tranquility would at least integrate the mechanic to the Heal-spec AM, as well as giving a use to a spell that not many AMs like.

Anyway im off the forums till monday. Thanks for the feedback, and cya then.

Penril wrote:Point taken. Those buffs were just an example; they could be something else (or nothing at all and just keep the benefits as "increased effectiveness" and "reduces cast time"). But making Healing Energy build Force instead of Tranquility would at least integrate the mechanic to the Heal-spec AM, as well as giving a use to a spell that not many AMs like.

Anyway im off the forums till monday. Thanks for the feedback, and cya then.

Ah, hopefully you didn't miss my first response.

I do like the idea of making Healing Energy more useful in a way that gives the AM something special, since these changes wouldn't be possible to mirror to RP/Zealot. When you come back, it'd be cool to hear your thoughts on some of the ideas I mentioned in my longer post, like the manual triggering of Force/Tranquility consumption.

Didnt really read all of it, but i wanted to start some discussion about the AM mechanic anyways (but only once the balance forum goes live).

And just some rough thoughts about what could be done were: All instant spells among all paths create X and all spells with a casttime create Y. X and Y stack 3 times max. Each stack of X gives for example 16.6% faster casttime on the next spell of Y. each stack of Y increases damage or duration (in case its a debuff) by 8.3% of an X spell.

Something like that. not really sure if there is a way to balance this, but it would be a profitable mechanic for healers and would prevent DPS am/sham from getting instant res/heals (because max reduction is 'just' 50% for example). Meaning dps ones cant use instant heals on the run and healers at least get a way to stack their mechanic through cleansing and hotting. Also DPS mages can on the other hand get their lance, lifetap or whatever faster off, since they can stack their mechanic with dots too.

I didnt bother yet if some spells should be excluded from the stacking mechanic or not.. like i said just some rough thoughts. Now bash me : >