Improving the 2H blackguard playstyle

[Coryphaus]

For the sake of comparison what would a normal tree3 s/b bg run in a 6 man? (and what stats on talis, assuming toughness/strength/init/wounds gear)

aIt would depend first off if that bg was going to be a dps bg of a defensive bg

[Nishka]

My view on the topic.

2h BG does have the biggest dmg potential out of all tanks due to having a wounds debuff (which is also utility), an anti detaunt, an ability with a very high tooltip dmg ( happens to be ae and utility aswell) and a reliable AA haste. Also being a double ressource class with less ap problems helps a lot.

AA haste becomes better the slower your weapon is, ideal for 2h weapons. Thats why, usually, tanks dont have it. IB has a very unreliable one. Buffing the dmg output significantly by doubling the number of autoattacks but still having the high multiplier for your aa dmg.

Wounds debuff, it is not as high as the mara one, but!!! you have the ability to spread it ae wise, applying snare aswell with a dok in grp. Without cd, unlike the chosen. So it is very unlikely to be cleansed (if it is possible at all, I dont know how it is in RoR).

Crimson Death, a high tooltip dmg (dmg base value) a BO can only dream of, even with shut yer face tactic. (the BO rarely puts points in this path to boost the tooltip dmg of shut yer face) (not saying the BO wouldnt crit for more on a low lvl AM without detaunt)
It is ae too. It is dmg and utility at once proccing snare (in grp) and wounds debuff (not likely to be cleansed). With only a 10s cd and can be used in combination with anti detaunt.

Knowing that BG is so strong on 2h, dmg wise superior to BO and Chosen, I highly doubt giving him kd is really necessary.

Why order needs more KDs than destru:
Due to the fact that destru has more speed increasing abilities. Usually 30% (25% on WE).
A 30% speed boost leads to -10% speed on destru side and -40% speed on order side with the assumption that both sides are snared. Order would be unable to catch up therefore they need hard CC. Without speed increasing ability snare is sufficient in most of the cases.
Please note that I am not saying destru doesnt need a KD at all.

Lets compare 2h BG to the other destru 2h tanks. Obviously you are switching out a snb tank for a 2h tank in order to deal more dmg, lets be honest, 2h almost always has less utility than snb.
2h BO would have KD if he wouldnt go for ae snare, which is pretty much the dumbest thing a destru grp could do. Dmg wise BO shines vs newbies (no detaunt, ultra squishy -> high crits), while BG can maintain a high dmg output on even skilled players due to anti detaunt and aa haste.
2H chosen, only interesting for tanks that dont know how to use challenge. Loosing fast moral tactic and defense for meh dmg. Wouldnt even consider it at all.

I believe this post pretty much draws the line under this discussion...

[Coryphaus]

My view on the topic.

2h BG does have the biggest dmg potential out of all tanks due to having a wounds debuff (which is also utility), an anti detaunt, an ability with a very high tooltip dmg ( happens to be ae and utility aswell) and a reliable AA haste. Also being a double ressource class with less ap problems helps a lot.

AA haste becomes better the slower your weapon is, ideal for 2h weapons. Thats why, usually, tanks dont have it. IB has a very unreliable one. Buffing the dmg output significantly by doubling the number of autoattacks but still having the high multiplier for your aa dmg.

Wounds debuff, it is not as high as the mara one, but!!! you have the ability to spread it ae wise, applying snare aswell with a dok in grp. Without cd, unlike the chosen. So it is very unlikely to be cleansed (if it is possible at all, I dont know how it is in RoR).

Crimson Death, a high tooltip dmg (dmg base value) a BO can only dream of, even with shut yer face tactic. (the BO rarely puts points in this path to boost the tooltip dmg of shut yer face) (not saying the BO wouldnt crit for more on a low lvl AM without detaunt)
It is ae too. It is dmg and utility at once proccing snare (in grp) and wounds debuff (not likely to be cleansed). With only a 10s cd and can be used in combination with anti detaunt.

Knowing that BG is so strong on 2h, dmg wise superior to BO and Chosen, I highly doubt giving him kd is really necessary.

Why order needs more KDs than destru:
Due to the fact that destru has more speed increasing abilities. Usually 30% (25% on WE).
A 30% speed boost leads to -10% speed on destru side and -40% speed on order side with the assumption that both sides are snared. Order would be unable to catch up therefore they need hard CC. Without speed increasing ability snare is sufficient in most of the cases.
Please note that I am not saying destru doesnt need a KD at all.

Lets compare 2h BG to the other destru 2h tanks. Obviously you are switching out a snb tank for a 2h tank in order to deal more dmg, lets be honest, 2h almost always has less utility than snb.
2h BO would have KD if he wouldnt go for ae snare, which is pretty much the dumbest thing a destru grp could do. Dmg wise BO shines vs newbies (no detaunt, ultra squishy -> high crits), while BG can maintain a high dmg output on even skilled players due to anti detaunt and aa haste.
2H chosen, only interesting for tanks that dont know how to use challenge. Loosing fast moral tactic and defense for meh dmg. Wouldnt even consider it at all.

First off couple of this to point out my opinions on here, No one will really pick a 2H over regular SnB tank as the second tank in a 6 man simply because the they are very bad at guarding dmg since they only have parry, this might work with chose who has suppression to boost parry but not so much for bg and blorc, you guys on enigma/gank bus may be the gods of 6v6 here in RoR and could make 2h tanks work or something but in the grand scheme of this no, and anything you listed SnB BG can do bar crimson death while having additional options like AoE snare with wave of scorn etc.


crimson death and monstrous rending both have 10s and 0s CD respectively but both cost 30 hate so to continuously spam them is hardly sustainable nor wise especially since you NEED to store up hate to make you buffs/debuffs/abilities more potent

Furthermore much like mara BG suffers from having many good tactics and not enough slots, if like it was discussed in this thread that you need to give up a tactic slot to make BoR into a KD, then it would be more than fair

[Koradrell]

My view on the topic.

2h BG does have the biggest dmg potential out of all tanks due to having a wounds debuff (which is also utility), an anti detaunt, an ability with a very high tooltip dmg ( happens to be ae and utility aswell) and a reliable AA haste. Also being a double ressource class with less ap problems helps a lot.

AA haste becomes better the slower your weapon is, ideal for 2h weapons. Thats why, usually, tanks dont have it. IB has a very unreliable one. Buffing the dmg output significantly by doubling the number of autoattacks but still having the high multiplier for your aa dmg.

Wounds debuff, it is not as high as the mara one, but!!! you have the ability to spread it ae wise, applying snare aswell with a dok in grp. Without cd, unlike the chosen. So it is very unlikely to be cleansed (if it is possible at all, I dont know how it is in RoR).

Crimson Death, a high tooltip dmg (dmg base value) a BO can only dream of, even with shut yer face tactic. (the BO rarely puts points in this path to boost the tooltip dmg of shut yer face) (not saying the BO wouldnt crit for more on a low lvl AM without detaunt)
It is ae too. It is dmg and utility at once proccing snare (in grp) and wounds debuff (not likely to be cleansed). With only a 10s cd and can be used in combination with anti detaunt.

Knowing that BG is so strong on 2h, dmg wise superior to BO and Chosen, I highly doubt giving him kd is really necessary.

Why order needs more KDs than destru:
Due to the fact that destru has more speed increasing abilities. Usually 30% (25% on WE).
A 30% speed boost leads to -10% speed on destru side and -40% speed on order side with the assumption that both sides are snared. Order would be unable to catch up therefore they need hard CC. Without speed increasing ability snare is sufficient in most of the cases.
Please note that I am not saying destru doesnt need a KD at all.

Lets compare 2h BG to the other destru 2h tanks. Obviously you are switching out a snb tank for a 2h tank in order to deal more dmg, lets be honest, 2h almost always has less utility than snb.
2h BO would have KD if he wouldnt go for ae snare, which is pretty much the dumbest thing a destru grp could do. Dmg wise BO shines vs newbies (no detaunt, ultra squishy -> high crits), while BG can maintain a high dmg output on even skilled players due to anti detaunt and aa haste.
2H chosen, only interesting for tanks that dont know how to use challenge. Loosing fast moral tactic and defense for meh dmg. Wouldnt even consider it at all.

I in general like what you say and I mostly agree, but some statements are very subjective without providing actual numbers after testing. Bear in mind that BG damage is physical, orc makes some magical dmg, both have armor debufs etc. so whether one is better than the other would depend on the target. Ideally, we should test the damage of the three tanks, equally geared and against the same targets (different types of course). Maybe we can arrange something

[Nanji]

First off couple of this to point out my opinions on here, No one will really pick a 2H over regular SnB tank as the second tank in a 6 man simply because the they are very bad at guarding dmg since they only have parry, this might work with chose who has suppression to boost parry but not so much for bg and blorc, you guys on enigma/gank bus may be the gods of 6v6 here in RoR and could make 2h tanks work or something but in the grand scheme of this no, and anything you listed SnB BG can do bar crimson death while having additional options like AoE snare with wave of scorn etc.


crimson death and monstrous rending both have 10s and 0s CD respectively but both cost 30 hate so to continuously spam them is hardly sustainable nor wise especially since you NEED to store up hate to make you buffs/debuffs/abilities more potent

Furthermore much like mara BG suffers from having many good tactics and not enough slots, if like it was discussed in this thread that you need to give up a tactic slot to make BoR into a KD, then it would be more than fair

When a grp chooses to play with a 2h tank, in order to deal more dmg, I dont have to compare 2h bg to his snb version.
The choice to go 2h has already been made.
So I just have to compare the 2h tanks available for destru.
Going with a 2h tank on destru side necessarily means to sacrifice utility for dmg.

I personally rate snb BG over 2h BG even if 2h BG had a 3s kd.
The same with IB though.

[Nanji]

I in general like what you say and I mostly agree, but some statements are very subjective without providing actual numbers after testing. Bear in mind that BG damage is physical, orc makes some magical dmg, both have armor debufs etc. so whether one is better than the other would depend on the target. Ideally, we should test the damage of the three tanks, equally geared and against the same targets (different types of course). Maybe we can arrange something

BO dmg is physical besides a proc on crit which is not increased by strenght or weapon dps. (WAAAAGH! sucks)
Under specific conditions I am entirely certain that BO deals more dmg than BG.
The crucial difference between BO and BG dmg is that you can actually detaunt the BO.
Also healers will hate the "uncleansable" (easy to cover or refresh) outgoing HD.
Testing dmg on tanks is generally a bad idea, they are not supposed to die first and usually dont.
Whether in premades or random SCs.

[Nanji]

Because Gobbos. (im not kidding, that's the excuse Order uses for EVERYTHING).

Because run away is absolutely not affecting balance at all.
GG WP

[Penril]

Because Gobbos. (im not kidding, that's the excuse Order uses for EVERYTHING).

Because run away is absolutely not affecting balance at all.
GG WP

Not saying it doesnt. But you have to admit 95% of order players always use the "but gobbos" excuse instead of saying something else. At least you mentioned other kind of destro speed buffs (besides RUN AWAY).

[Nanji]

Because Gobbos. (im not kidding, that's the excuse Order uses for EVERYTHING).

Because run away is absolutely not affecting balance at all.
GG WP

Not saying it doesnt. But you have to admit 95% of order players always use the "but gobbos" excuse instead of saying something else. At least you mentioned other kind of destro speed buffs (besides RUN AWAY).

Marauder is a thing too. Especially in t4, where we are not at yet.
There are other examples.
I ve red a lot of complaints in /ad over the years.
On order it seems mainly the kobs people are upset about. Probably because it takes so little effort to not suck completely on that class.
If the common SH/shaman would move instead of cast a 3s cast when approached by a train, "run away" would be considered game breaking and we had a lot of order tears shed about that.

[War]

Going with a 2h tank on destru side necessarily means to sacrifice utility for dmg.

I personally rate snb BG over 2h BG even if 2h BG had a 3s kd.
The same with IB though.

Yeah, absolutely. But, wouldn't you agree that giving 2h BGs that KD would be a huge step in improving it's viability? Even if it is likely that it will not make 2h BGs highly viable, it will drastically improve the quality of life.

To provide a relevant anecdote that everyone seems so fond of; it's late at night, no friends are on, you throw on that sweet glaive for some solo action right? A WH opens up on you, BAM! Pistol Whip! You try to chase down a SW, BAM! Eye Shot! You try to chase down a BW, BAM! Stop, Drop and Roll! You try to have a nice 2h duel with an IB, BAM! Cave-Win! With all that time spent with your face in the mud, you start to ponder, "Why the hell don't I have a KD?", "Oh yeah, I gave it up for some more white damage....feelsbadman."

In regard to group play, any competent player knows that SnB is the superior setup and it feels terrible to give up something as impactful as Spiteful Slam. When on the IB however, it doesn't feel nearly as bad to throw on that 2h. Sure, it may be a bit less viable than SnB, but it doesn't make you feel foolish for doing so.

I strongly believe that playing a certain setup shouldn't make you feel foolish and guilty, even if it is less viable. Giving BoR a KD would fix this undeniable issue.