Return of Reckoning

Well, well, this is the diametrically opposite situation in May. Let's return the former glory of GTDC, oae heal debuff, morals, Crypling Strike, and whatewer... Without these crutches, a Desi cannot have the same competence and drink Order tears in the morning.

The problem seems to be the organization (or lack thereof) for NA primetime Destro. During EU primetime destruction has a couple of organized WBs and competent leaders that take advantage of their larger numbers during EU prime time. Order does have a few organized leaders that can wrangle up some WBs so it's not a wholesale stomp, but from personal experience, it's hard to stop the push until we get to forts. I don't know how organized Destro is when it comes to pushing forts but they seem to give up after a few failed attempts to take the lord room.

On the flip side, when NA primetime comes around Order can muster (at least in my alliance) usually 4 organized leaders that can field their own WBs, and this isn't counting other guilds or leaders who wrangle the pugs (like the hero Beastz). Once the EU Destro leaders log off it's all over. I can't seem to find too many Destro WB leaders, except maybe Gitbane. There are a few 6-12 man groups that roam around like Animelover (who is awesome and always fights). The point is there is no organization and it turns into a stomp.

And recently when Destro pushed the 5-star Altdorf, I heard from the order who flipped to Destro to push it that the only reason they could do it is because Order logged in to Destro. Well, that just means that the problem is the people who play Destro, not the class balance. If people who play Order go play Destro and steamroll Order, then it cant be the classes. It's not an easy fix because you have to get more people used to leading (which can be scary or difficult), but changing the classes won't fix the current issue unless it's to introduce a handicap mechanic.

Edit: Also, this whole zerg/blobbing argument as the only reason for winning is invalid. Destro seem to have more players for EU primetime and Order for NA primetime.

Sybreal wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:32 pm During EU primetime destruction.... take advantage of their larger numbers during EU prime time.

Destro win only when heavy outnumber order, and even the pushes stop when hit forts (limited numbers of attackers)...
When order outnumber Destro is a stompfest and when the pushes hit forts its a 93% winrate to order...

Looks ok.

emiliorv wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:06 pm

Sybreal wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:32 pm During EU primetime destruction.... take advantage of their larger numbers during EU prime time.

Destro win only when heavy outnumber order, and even the pushes stop when hit forts (limited numbers of attackers)...
When order outnumber Destro is a stompfest and when the pushes hit forts its a 93% winrate to order...

Looks ok.

How did you just ignore the entire point of what I said and cherrypick what would suit you? You even snipped the actual important bits from that sentence.

Sybreal wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:32 pmDuring EU primetime destruction has a couple of organized WBs and competent leaders that take advantage of their larger numbers during EU prime time.

The entire point of my argument is organization. You can win against superior numbers with organization. You will lose to inferior numbers without organization. Destro have larger numbers during EU primetime AND organization. Their pushes and warbands are difficult to stop because of this. If they just had large numbers, it would be much easier to beat them.

BW / Engineer = Easy win

Sybreal wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:20 pm

emiliorv wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:06 pm

Sybreal wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:32 pm During EU primetime destruction.... take advantage of their larger numbers during EU prime time.

Destro win only when heavy outnumber order, and even the pushes stop when hit forts (limited numbers of attackers)...
When order outnumber Destro is a stompfest and when the pushes hit forts its a 93% winrate to order...

Looks ok.

How did you just ignore the entire point of what I said and cherrypick what would suit you? You even snipped the actual important bits from that sentence.

Sybreal wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:32 pmDuring EU primetime destruction has a couple of organized WBs and competent leaders that take advantage of their larger numbers during EU prime time.

The entire point of my argument is organization. You can win against superior numbers with organization. You will lose to inferior numbers without organization. Destro have larger numbers during EU primetime AND organization. Their pushes and warbands are difficult to stop because of this. If they just had large numbers, it would be much easier to beat them.

True, the issue is that there is not much. Like you said when destro pushes 5* Alt it is not destro, it is order guilds xrealming and making the push.
This means that you lose X organised and (probably) BiS equipped WBs, while destro gets the same. That is not destro pushing, it's order farming on both sides to me.
It has been months that many big names moved to order. Those same guilds were saying that order was able to win everywhere pre-nerfs (and demonstrated it was true by stomping destro in any content), plus there were nerfs which pushed away more players.
The lack of organization in recent months are because ppl stopped trying as they expect to lose.. sure if the are twice their number we try to get some zone, sure if there is some good leader we might try getting a fort (pushing 2 to lose one as usual).

Partially the issue is (as it was repeated over and over) class balance. destro needs more rdps and till they get the proper amount pushing forts will always be harder. Organization also extremely important (I fully agree)
However, the issue is also in part bad balancing... Sure, we cannot compare classes with their mirror and blablabla, but if the potential of destro classes is lower compared to that of order classes the balance will point on one side. By potential I mean a combination of factors (e.g. dps, survivability and utility).
If we take two mirrors (e.g. a dps couple) and the dps is more or less similar one as slightly more survivability while the other offer slightly better utility there is balance. If one has more dps and survivability while the other has slightly better utility there is no balance (also because a dps class should be dps first so I would consider it the most important part).
Recent months changes (in my opinion) lowered the potential of a few destro classes more than they affected order. That and the better organization ended up leading to the current situation

There is a clear cause and effect in play.
Cause , nerfs that have made Destro less effective compared to order
Effect, organised guilds (especially min/max guild) move to more effective side or stop playing

Surprise surprise the loss of toons effectiveness and guilds means organizational and potential of Destro is hammered


This is the common message repeated over and over in the thread. Not complex

Summary nerfed Destro means organised guilds play on order predominantly as min/max logic says don’t play weak side.

Sybreal wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:32 pm The problem seems to be the organization (or lack thereof) for NA primetime Destro. During EU primetime destruction has a couple of organized WBs and competent leaders that take advantage of their larger numbers during EU prime time. Order does have a few organized leaders that can wrangle up some WBs so it's not a wholesale stomp, but from personal experience, it's hard to stop the push until we get to forts. I don't know how organized Destro is when it comes to pushing forts but they seem to give up after a few failed attempts to take the lord room.

On the flip side, when NA primetime comes around Order can muster (at least in my alliance) usually 4 organized leaders that can field their own WBs, and this isn't counting other guilds or leaders who wrangle the pugs (like the hero Beastz). Once the EU Destro leaders log off it's all over. I can't seem to find too many Destro WB leaders, except maybe Gitbane. There are a few 6-12 man groups that roam around like Animelover (who is awesome and always fights). The point is there is no organization and it turns into a stomp.

And recently when Destro pushed the 5-star Altdorf, I heard from the order who flipped to Destro to push it that the only reason they could do it is because Order logged in to Destro. Well, that just means that the problem is the people who play Destro, not the class balance. If people who play Order go play Destro and steamroll Order, then it cant be the classes. It's not an easy fix because you have to get more people used to leading (which can be scary or difficult), but changing the classes won't fix the current issue unless it's to introduce a handicap mechanic.

Edit: Also, this whole zerg/blobbing argument as the only reason for winning is invalid. Destro seem to have more players for EU primetime and Order for NA primetime.

I love how everyone points out that when a bunch of order xrealm over to destro suddenly destro is able to push the fort. I don't know how many times I have to explain in this thread that destro already was able to win attacking forts. Aside from that point you're completely ignoring the fact that when a bunch of order log over to destro to push there might be something missing from the order that makes that push a lot easier. IDK like a bunch of order that suddenly isn't there resisting and possibly their buddies who know what they are doing and also want that tasty 5 star altdorf. You people don't give up on trying to push a narrative, I have to give you that.

[/quote]

Recent months changes (in my opinion) lowered the potential of a few destro classes more than they affected order. That and the better organization ended up leading to the current situation
[/quote]

I agree with most of the post in general. However, I would slightly change this - That caused a large number of Destro leadership to quit/reroll to Order, which ended up leading to the current situation.

I saw someone mentioned PnP - reroll actually happened like 1m ago, before that some people made toons so they can play it in their free time. PnP up to 1 month ago was destro guild with obligatory raid nights on Destro side if you are able to play. If cities happened guild would always play destro side.
Reroll happened after most of those changes were introduced in the game, as well as quitting/going on a break of some important players/leaders.

Now, don't get me wrong, this did not happen exclusively because of destro nerfs, but it certainly didn't help. What I can tell you for sure is that people didn't reroll because they were tired of winning, as someone mentioned.

In my opinion I don't think destro nerfs/order buffs, "working as intended" messages from devs and other things people are complaining on forums and in game were enough to cause current 94% win rate for order on its own. But what it did is it worsened moral of destro side drastically, as they were seeing nerf after nerf few patches in a row, with no intention to stop (at least it is how it seems to people). That inclined people to take break/reroll to order, mostly affecting top players/guilds.
Do not forget that most organized/geared guilds are the most hard core part of the community. And, as a hard core player if you do your best and still lose from other side time and time again (as people mentioned city fights were very close on highest level already even before moral nerfs) and you win on the other side hard core community will stay on the side where they are winning - that's why they are hard core, winning is most important aspect.

There is one more interesting aspect of this threat in my opinion - not that long ago there was similar topic regarding order losing cca 70% of cities. This caused series of destro nerfs with message that balance has to be restored with the goal that city win rate should be cca 50% for both factions.
Now we have this threat, proving that there is 90% + Order wins in fort, so it will be very interesting how devs respond to it.
If they start with destro buffs/order nerfs I am sure it will cause another outrage of community down the line with similar topic similar to this one and the question is how will it stop?
If they ignore this and do nothing I would expect that more and more people will quit/reroll order, as moral will get lower and lower.

There is one thing for sure - I am glad I am not dev

Dondabon wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:01 pm

Recent months changes (in my opinion) lowered the potential of a few destro classes more than they affected order. That and the better organization ended up leading to the current situation
[/quote]

I agree with most of the post in general. However, I would slightly change this - That caused a large number of Destro leadership to quit/reroll to Order, which ended up leading to the current situation.

I saw someone mentioned PnP - reroll actually happened like 1m ago, before that some people made toons so they can play it in their free time. PnP up to 1 month ago was destro guild with obligatory raid nights on Destro side if you are able to play. If cities happened guild would always play destro side.
Reroll happened after most of those changes were introduced in the game, as well as quitting/going on a break of some important players/leaders.

Now, don't get me wrong, this did not happen exclusively because of destro nerfs, but it certainly didn't help. What I can tell you for sure is that people didn't reroll because they were tired of winning, as someone mentioned.

In my opinion I don't think destro nerfs/order buffs, "working as intended" messages from devs and other things people are complaining on forums and in game were enough to cause current 94% win rate for order on its own. But what it did is it worsened moral of destro side drastically, as they were seeing nerf after nerf few patches in a row, with no intention to stop (at least it is how it seems to people). That inclined people to take break/reroll to order, mostly affecting top players/guilds.
Do not forget that most organized/geared guilds are the most hard core part of the community. And, as a hard core player if you do your best and still lose from other side time and time again (as people mentioned city fights were very close on highest level already even before moral nerfs) and you win on the other side hard core community will stay on the side where they are winning - that's why they are hard core, winning is most important aspect.

There is one more interesting aspect of this threat in my opinion - not that long ago there was similar topic regarding order losing cca 70% of cities. This caused series of destro nerfs with message that balance has to be restored with the goal that city win rate should be cca 50% for both factions.
Now we have this threat, proving that there is 90% + Order wins in fort, so it will be very interesting how devs respond to it.
If they start with destro buffs/order nerfs I am sure it will cause another outrage of community down the line with similar topic similar to this one and the question is how will it stop?
If they ignore this and do nothing I would expect that more and more people will quit/reroll order, as moral will get lower and lower.

There is one thing for sure - I am glad I am not dev
[/quote]

+1

this is how I see it as well. There is nothing to add.