DoK/WP with book/chalice...

[grendel1892]

I love my DoK and my WP, Played them on Gorfang, Iron Rock, and a few other servers. I just resumed Playing RoR last week. And I am enjoying them all over again. if you want to reduce backline healing OP ness by all means reducing RF/SE regen from books and Chalices is the simplest way. I personally would like to see the Books and Chalices removed. I know that will upset people, and I understand why, Don't really need to hear all the griping since I know it won't happen. What I would really like to see is the RF/SE mechanic reworked so that the more you built up the more effective your heals would be. As a DPS/melee healer I always seemed to have surplus RF that I can't use, it would be nice if I could put that to use and still be a viable group/support member. As I recall a R40 Dok group heal hits for about 240 due to the -40% from tactics and having little to no willpower. If having over 250 SE/RF brought that up it would be nice. I think that is to big a change though and maybe not even possible. It would be interesting though.. the more you spam group heals the less effective they become, the more you DPS, the more effective they become. Salv,Dark Rites specs could still work because they would get higher group heals without the DPS tactics, but they would still need to be in front lines. Especially if their SE/RF regens were reduced. Anyway, just a thought.

[Tesq]

@defiance
uhm the hard coldown could work in the specific case but to put it simple, CD increase / decrease would still need a look , imo they are way better due to being out of a immunity check and the way they empowered/rend useless g-heals.
Unless you start give everything hard CD they still need to be touch somehow for me their influence over the battle it's too high they have no trade off and no skill for the great impact they bring and appart from choppa fasta (the only of these 4 group/aoe skill nerfed) they rest is all spam-able.

[Defiance]

I love my DoK and my WP, Played them on Gorfang, Iron Rock, and a few other servers. I just resumed Playing RoR last week. And I am enjoying them all over again. if you want to reduce backline healing OP ness by all means reducing RF/SE regen from books and Chalices is the simplest way. I personally would like to see the Books and Chalices removed. I know that will upset people, and I understand why, Don't really need to hear all the griping since I know it won't happen. What I would really like to see is the RF/SE mechanic reworked so that the more you built up the more effective your heals would be. As a DPS/melee healer I always seemed to have surplus RF that I can't use, it would be nice if I could put that to use and still be a viable group/support member. As I recall a R40 Dok group heal hits for about 240 due to the -40% from tactics and having little to no willpower. If having over 250 SE/RF brought that up it would be nice. I think that is to big a change though and maybe not even possible. It would be interesting though.. the more you spam group heals the less effective they become, the more you DPS, the more effective they become. Salv,Dark Rites specs could still work because they would get higher group heals without the DPS tactics, but they would still need to be in front lines. Especially if their SE/RF regens were reduced. Anyway, just a thought.

That sounds amazing, if only because Empowered Transfer might approach backline levels of effectiveness, making each Sac/Grace player a beacon of front line healing and legitimizing it as a playstyle. It's still amazing even if applied only to the heals from DR/Salv, since they suck so badly -40%. It wouldn't be too OP, since "battle healers" are often cycling between the melee aoe heal (gain resource), and the melee st heal (drain resource). It might be a little ridiculous on mDPS, who could spam aoe heal in place of single target, in which case other sources of dps should be looked at. The idea very much matches the battle healer persona.

@defiance
uhm the hard coldown could work in the specific case but to put it simple, CD increase / decrease would still need a look , imo they are way better due to being out of a immunity check and the way they empowered/rend useless g-heals.
Unless you start give everything hard CD they still need to be touch somehow for me their influence over the battle it's too high they have no trade off and no skill for the great impact they bring and appart from choppa fasta (the only of these 4 group/aoe skill nerfed) they rest is all spam-able.

I'm not opposed to internal CDs at all. They function the same as external ones, while allowing interplay between increase/decrease effects. If the problem with gcleanse is that it can be spammed, simply make it unspammable. I'm not fully abreast of the Choppa situation, but it's something that should be looked into.

[bwdaWAR]

A note on the WP/DoK survival granted by their better gear base armor, something most of us are familiar with, the Stalker kill quests. On Order it is Chosen, BOs, DoKs and Zealots. On Destruction, it is KotBS, BWs, AMs and Engineers. Admittedly I mostly do lake RvR where there is less dedicated fighting and slower kills, but my personal experience on multiple characters and what I heard from pretty much every player is the same: the hardest to complete is the Zealot/AM one. The DoK quest will complete about as fast as the Chosen/BO one, while Zealot will take forever. This can be partly due to popularity of the classes, but there are plenty of Zealots. And while there is no WP quest to actually compare a popular class (WP) to another popular class (AM), the AM quest takes about the same time to complete as the Zealot one. (On a side note, the second hardest for Destruction is usually the Engineer one. And the BW is the fastest - because of their self-damaging glass cannon design, they often literally kill themselves.)
While this is not exactly conclusive evidence, unlike the various theories and calculations posted here it actually comes from practice, incorporating player habits in general, and everyone from the worst players to the best because only your kill counts matter. And I think it shows quite well that ranged healers have a definite advantage over melee healers (and ranged over melee in general) in terms of survival, that doesn't appear in paperdoll stats used in the calculations here, but appears in the game itself.

[TenTonHammer]

Make it non modifiable by duration affects like that one ap costing heal that they have

[Tesq]

Make it non modifiable by duration affects like that one ap costing heal that they have

even solving the problem of the heals there's still the problem of no skill/no trade off/spamm---> block enemy wb aoe.

But i admit if wb could at least stay up then shatter limbs would be less hard to deal with and make cleanse/group heal immune to cd modifier like ap heal would also avoid godly g-cleanse and g-heal spam ( to said it easier you would maybe suggest more simplier to make CD modifiers only work on offensive skills and not on healing one).

but anyway talking of making them immune by cd modifiers you are just basically anyway nerf those skills...which lead to always nerf them somehow anyway.
The major problem is that have CD modifier( also aoe) is somethign really strong in a game where everything neeed to be spam to be effective. Furthermore these things are out of any immunity. So it's really hard found a balance for these stuff

[Penril]

When healers that supposedly can't kite (Dok, WP) are performing better than those who supposedly excel at it (Shaman, Zeal, etc.) when fighting against larger numbers (fights where you usually have to kite) then we have a problem. Now, the question is: should Dok/WP be nerfed, or should the other healers be buffed?

I feel cloth healers are fine. But if they are fine, and people still pick Doks over them, then the answer is pretty obvious don't you think?




Another thing i wanted to point out is that, in the case of Wing'z group, they run a melee Dok for ST healing. I can understand why, since they have 2 fully dedicated healers and therefore 1) they probably lack a little DPS, which the melee Dok compensates for, and 2) when fighting against larger numbers, extra heals are always welcome. Now my question is: Could that role be filled by a DPS Shaman instead? or a DPS Zealot? Should Sham/Zea be able to fill that role in the first place?

But that is probably a discussion for a different thread.

[ThePollie]

To clarify, there is a distinctive difference between kiting and backing away from an enemy.

Any class can keep distance to a degree from the enemy, but not everyone has tools to deal with being snared and rooted constantly, or means to actually get distance once the gap has been closed.

[Gobtar]

When healers that supposedly can't kite (Dok, WP) are performing better than those who supposedly excel at it (Shaman, Zeal, etc.) when fighting against larger numbers (fights where you usually have to kite) then we have a problem. Now, the question is: should Dok/WP be nerfed, or should the other healers be buffed?

I feel cloth healers are fine. But if they are fine, and people still pick Doks over them, then the answer is pretty obvious don't you think?




Another thing i wanted to point out is that, in the case of Wing'z group, they run a melee Dok for ST healing. I can understand why, since they have 2 fully dedicated healers and therefore 1) they probably lack a little DPS, which the melee Dok compensates for, and 2) when fighting against larger numbers, extra heals are always welcome. Now my question is: Could that role be filled by a DPS Shaman instead? or a DPS Zealot? Should Sham/Zea be able to fill that role in the first place?

But that is probably a discussion for a different thread.

I believe that Hybrid Shamans should indeed be a thing. This however is not viable at the moment.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Another thing i wanted to point out is that, in the case of Wing'z group, they run a melee Dok for ST healing. I can understand why, since they have 2 fully dedicated healers and therefore 1) they probably lack a little DPS, which the melee Dok compensates for, and 2) when fighting against larger numbers, extra heals are always welcome. Now my question is: Could that role be filled by a DPS Shaman instead? or a DPS Zealot? Should Sham/Zea be able to fill that role in the first place?

But that is probably a discussion for a different thread.

A rdps setup requires 3 dps in order to get through guard, especially with dot classes the dmg is not high enough.
With the coming changes to guard the 1-3-2 ranged setup might become BiS. We will see.
Btw shamans are always good to have vs big numbers, if you kite.