Return of Reckoning

I never posted in this thread because OP asked DoK to be left out, but id just like to say a couple of things.

First is that I find it hilarious how many people do not realise how much stronger melee DoK is compared to melee WP, its pretty big. The DoK has a much more aggressive playstyle and has skills that make it more deadly in melee in both damage and survival ( such as devour ) the WP does not have these types of skills, this change will make it so it might actually stand a chance when it wants to go into melee range, instead of just flat out being killed be aoe.

Playing a sac dok myself I know how much healing it can do in melee, all of this dps phrasing I think should be dropped. The classes were never designed to be pure dps, and they shouldn't, if they had the damage of a pure class they would just be highly broken, people should realise that they are melee healers, its how they were designed and they can be effective at it, people just don't understand it and bash anyone who wants to play it in melee.

I'm not neglecting the dps trees, I think they are good and in t4 I will welcome the torture tree additions for my DoK, but the melee healing is what should be focused on, and its ability to keep itself alive along side its groupmates, its a support healer, and the skillset reflects that, DoK is just flat out better, and a change was needed so that WP can try and play the way it was designed. I'm not saying I would not welcome this change on my DoK, of course I would, but the melee DoK is already strong. The melee WP needed some kind of change, and now it was one to experiment with, we will just have to see how well it works or does not work.

Well said, Ade!

Ade wrote:I never posted in this thread because OP asked DoK to be left out, but id just like to say a couple of things.

First is that I find it hilarious how many people do not realise how much stronger melee DoK is compared to melee WP, its pretty big. The DoK has a much more aggressive playstyle and has skills that make it more deadly in melee in both damage and survival ( such as devour ) the WP does not have these types of skills, this change will make it so it might actually stand a chance when it wants to go into melee range, instead of just flat out being killed be aoe.

Playing a sac dok myself I know how much healing it can do in melee, all of this dps phrasing I think should be dropped. The classes were never designed to be pure dps, and they shouldn't, if they had the damage of a pure class they would just be highly broken, people should realise that they are melee healers, its how they were designed and they can be effective at it, people just don't understand it and bash anyone who wants to play it in melee.

I'm not neglecting the dps trees, I think they are good and in t4 I will welcome the torture tree additions for my DoK, but the melee healing is what should be focused on, and its ability to keep itself alive along side its groupmates, its a support healer, and the skillset reflects that, DoK is just flat out better, and a change was needed so that WP can try and play the way it was designed. I'm not saying I would not welcome this change on my DoK, of course I would, but the melee DoK is already strong. The melee WP needed some kind of change, and now it was one to experiment with, we will just have to see how well it works or does not work.

Really? I only remember Parry, Parry, Blocked, Absorb, Absprb, Absorb, Parry, Parry, Parry, Block, 1, 1, 5, Parry

So, after kind of fighting trough the thread now and saying i also got a WP what perhaps some ppl don't know.
The Question is what do u expect of melee healers?
I played melee Dok Starilas for years and guess who knows me sees that melee healing works, also healing a grp alone(not vs voicepremades) in bgs, but ... it's hard work and u need guard. Much more relaxing when having a back up (cast) healer in grp too. But, a Class which is able of being firstdmg/firstheal in a bg should definetly need at least a guard for that. Opposit side is, i can't kill a good healed player alone, i have no problem with that, coz your main aim is healing an bursthealing, for killing you assist.
In my eyes this is absolutly the job a meele dok/wp should have, good heal, best burstheal, and additional dmg on single target.
- Only thing that never worked well, zerg fights, therefor a melee dok/wp should respec, or relog

In the dmg->heal department dok and wp got the same, except devour essence, already posted sth about a change to sigmars shield, that would be more the healing way, which should be quite strong,(perhaps too strong). I only speak about the healing boost from devour essence(yes u can also give it to other ppl)

Damage: In several ways Order is more the buff your team destro is more the crush the other team side, same like with dok/wp, WP got the nice parry buff, allways usefull(yes you can also buff someone else with it) and the in my eyes imba lifebuff,imba coz only long dura lifebuff in game. Other abilities in the Wrath path - for t4 late game - are also nice, only never undiskussed thing, the healreduce but so far, 32/40 still faar away, so got time to discuss that.

Now back to the question, what do u expect?
Meele healer is not a full dd, coz he's missing debuffs and really hard attacks,
he also can't heal you when u charge in first line while all other ppl are 100 feet behind, so ??? He just doesn't really fit in a 2-2-2 Setup.
And a hell of a lot of ppl already start to flame instantly when they see u are on melee coz they think you don't heal a ****! Why ? Well thats still from life server where ppl where useing dmg not dmg/heal anytimer (who knows why) and never changeing deftarget off from themselves- how offen have i seen melees let their guardtanks die without even healing them- That's just a thing sticked to peoples brain, even when u overheal every other healer in the end of the bg they still argue u only healed yourself

Back to the Setup, a melee dok can't really compensat a dd, nor a healer or ?
My Guild adjusted Setup for a melee dok, now we also tried it with 2 melee healer one casthealer. If we are in the complete Setup we haven't lost a single sc. I don't want to boast her, the thing is just ... I really love the dynamik of melee healing, exactly how it works now for melee dok ( WP needs sth adequat for devour essence to have an additional boostheal) just the possibility to clever pick targets to heal my group switch deff targets to face focus dmg and also switching on the right targets in the right moment to kill them. That is hard work, but also makes a lot of fun. After I read several things here, I fear that u are perhaps going to take that away, switching melee dok/wp to sth like daoc warden, or boosting it to make it easier which would in my eyes just completly overpower it.

Little Fixes:
A non tactic ae detaunt is a step towards op, i would prefer a not skilled tactic only working with dual/2hand. That wouldn't really change sth in the end game balance but give the lvl32 ppl the possibility to use it on melee.
Adjust Sigmars Shield to 5 Sec duration 20 sec cooldown, healing on every hit but only draining Fury once a second.(perhaps bit too op, guess have to be tested if healing value or cooldown must be changed)

For the future ( t4 ... ) find some usefull healreduce or other nice dmg/debuff ability for melee wp in torture tree)


Greetings Starilas

You want to tough up the melee-wp, so why not just mirror Intimidating Repent with terrifying Aura?

Intimidating repent only aoe detaunt around wp's target, while Terrifying Aura aoe detaunt around the dok.
So when our brave grace-wp detaunt the rdps in the backline, the meleetrain will slice him in pieces,
If he detaunt the melee train, the rdps is having a good time on his ass.

Imo, aoe detaunt is still way to strong to be given away for free (without slotting it or spend a mastery point), so mirror them and let the willing dok/wp spend a mastery point/taktik slot for it, in the endgame there is more than enough mastery point for that.

At the end a melee-dok/wp without guard or group is going to die a few thousand time a day.

the question is will be 2h salv wp valid option? Cos that is pretty exploitable situation if by tactics wp could keep healthy rf being with 2h and heal speced

Azarael wrote:You know the vast majority wouldn't see it that way. If I had given both WP and DoK access to the effect of their detaunt tactics and it had turned out that only one of the classes was too strong, you can bet your ass that the players who thought DoK was too strong as well as those who believed, rightly or wrongly, that WP was overpowered by the change would push in tandem to get both rolled back.

That wasn't something I was prepared to risk.

Stop asking why DoK wasn't mirrored this buff. Azarael has answered this at least six times.

Hmmm looked at this change and over all I don't believe it adds to much in survivability to the class. Once you commit on a DPS wp your committed from then on in and kiting off is not really going to be a possibility for you as you won't want to till your focused and you won't be able to under focus due to snares.

Really all this does is give a tank reaction time on a guard swap under focus your going to burn action points fast trying to live you might not even have any for a 2nd detaunt.

At the end of the day this isn't a game changer yesterday's meta is still today's meta WP damage and rebuffing is still laughable. All DPS WP ever had was resilience I see no reason not to let it be resilient.

To the person that asked about healing with 2 hander I doubt it as your ability to generate RF would be gimp and the second you get focus you will die due to no RF.

As an aside will this change be permenant for T4 also? Additional tactic slots and skill points being available.

Toldavf wrote:
As an aside will this change be permenant for T4 also? Additional tactic slots and skill points being available.

It says [Experimental] in the Changelog. We'll just have to see how it works out.

Azarael wrote:The reason I didn't mirror the change is because melee DoK functions better than melee WP did, and I didn't want to compromise the change as a whole if it turned out that melee DoK having access to it made it too strong.

Why do you think it's strong?
Because he has heal debuff? Yes, but it's avialible at 27 in the best case and require tactic slot.
Or snare aura? yes, but while kiting you need to actually use Fist of Khaine to made it proc and, obviously, it will ruin your detaunt.

DPS DOKs are forced to use 2 tactics: +25% power and +10% parry/crit (also as DPS WP), but what they will place to 3rd slot? AOE detaunt or AA speed? Or heal debuff?

Just a reminder, that mirror to Grace tree is Sacrifice, but not Tortue. And heal debuff is in Tortue, also as AOE-detaunt.
And DOKs will be forced to take "musthave" tactic and be with weak DPS-healing or be good melee-healers but without that tactics.

Good changes, really. How it's going on T1? Wagons of 2h Wps, steamrolling all around?