Improving the 2H blackguard playstyle

[Nishka]

You know if i had to choose between a tactic slot that give me aa haste and a core ability that gives me aa haste id take the latter

IB is about buffing allies, BG is an offensive foused class with buffs that are more selfish in nature hence why IB has toughness buff and BG has toughness debuff along with other offensive focused abilites like anti detuant

Furthermore IB 2h is much stronger and better for grp play than BG 2h

Weather you like it or not BG should have the ability to choose to spec into a kd while using a 2h just like every other tank in the game

Sure. But in that case, 3sec kd, not 5. And put it into def tree, not core.

[War]

I know people want a KD because IB has a great one. But does that mean IB are going to get access to a wounds debuff and AA speed tactic /toughness debuff / AP debuff / and the immunity to detaunt tactic?

BG's have some really good stuff. Yeah they don't got a good KD in a 2H spec but they got some nasty **** to make up for it.

The careers are not mirrored, the career mechanics are.

Those are minor, great things that the BGs have, yeah. It's not comparable to missing a crucial ability like a strong knockdown. Again, to be the ONLY tank in the game with absolutely no access to a KD is absurd. Maras and Chosen debuff wounds, toughness and AP regularly as well, it's not that special. The BG's real unique claim to fame, the detaunt immunity, is strong indeed.

IBs also have great things that the BG doesn't have, especially in regard to the Oathfriend > Dark Protector situation. Armor buff, Cave-Win, GWM, Earthshatter, baseline Corp buff/ AA haste, Weapon Skill/AP buff, heavy blow, etc. The IB doesn't need anything from it's inferior mirror, the 2h IB playstyle is more viable.

I'ts not unreasonable for the inferior 2h mirror to attain the ability that is needed and deserved. They are career mirrors.

[Ninepaces]

For the sake of comparison what would a normal tree3 s/b bg run in a 6 man? (and what stats on talis, assuming toughness/strength/init/wounds gear)

[War]

You know if i had to choose between a tactic slot that give me aa haste and a core ability that gives me aa haste id take the latter

IB is about buffing allies, BG is an offensive foused class with buffs that are more selfish in nature hence why IB has toughness buff and BG has toughness debuff along with other offensive focused abilites like anti detuant

Furthermore IB 2h is much stronger and better for grp play than BG 2h

Weather you like it or not BG should have the ability to choose to spec into a kd while using a 2h just like every other tank in the game

Sure. But in that case, 3sec kd, not 5. And put it into def tree, not core.

It's already been discussed that it would be a 3 second KD and the KD would be tacked onto BoR in the Malice tree, while using a 2h. It needs to be in the 2h tree like the mirror.

[Koradrell]

Hi guys, I have been playing BG recently (I like the lore and look and feel mostly, I am not that kind of players that chose a class for being the strongest). Please clarify me the following. I understand that the purpose of this thread, is really to give 2h BG some group (6man?) utility right? If so, let me ask the following. Will giving 2h BG a kd make it viable for group play? (yes, I said viable, not "more viable", or "some better", just viable). I think that first we need to answer this.

Personally, I think we should not just focus on a single hability but look at BG as a whole class. I am against mirroring, but trying to keep each class with its own personality. This means that if the purpose is making 2h BG useful for a group, let's try to broaden our spectrum, maybe the answer is not a KD but, I don't know, changing some bufs, or maybe making the effect of some tactic on an hability default to give room to another one tactice, i don't know. But we should first define what USEFUL as a 2h actually means (dps? buffs? debuffs?), and then work towards that goal.

So here you are my last question. What does useful, in the context of a 2h tank for a group, means for you?

Thanks in advance

[Nishka]

[Ninepaces]

For the sake of comparison what would a normal tree3 s/b bg run in a 6 man? (and what stats on talis, assuming toughness/strength/init/wounds gear)

[War]

If you don't think a 2h KD would be a huge step in improving 2h BG viability; you're delusional and ignorant.

[Karast]

I know people want a KD because IB has a great one. But does that mean IB are going to get access to a wounds debuff and AA speed tactic /toughness debuff / AP debuff / and the immunity to detaunt tactic?

BG's have some really good stuff. Yeah they don't got a good KD in a 2H spec but they got some nasty **** to make up for it.

The careers are not mirrored, the career mechanics are.

Those are minor, great things that the BGs have, yeah. It's not comparable to missing a crucial ability like a strong knockdown. Again, to be the ONLY tank in the game with absolutely no access to a KD is absurd. Maras and Chosen debuff wounds, toughness and AP regularly as well, it's not that special. The BG's real unique claim to fame, the detaunt immunity, is strong indeed.

IBs also have great things that the BG doesn't have, especially in regard to the Oathfriend > Dark Protector situation. Armor buff, Cave-Win, GWM, Earthshatter, baseline Corp buff/ AA haste, Weapon Skill/AP buff, heavy blow, etc. The IB doesn't need anything from it's inferior mirror, the 2h IB playstyle is more viable.

I'ts not unreasonable for the inferior 2h mirror to attain the ability that is needed and deserved. They are career mirrors.

Hold up a second.

Yeah IB have buffs, the class is built around buffing your Oathfriend. But order is filled with buffs, just look at WP / RP / and Knights.

The buffs are mostly worthless. They don't stack with anything. Armor potions / auras / Rp buffs all of them replace them. The only ones that end up working okay is the WS buff, the willpower buff (BG has it too) and the toughness buff. But those are abilities you use sparingly. IB don't build grudge as fast as BG's do. If you go buff crazy with grudge skills you won't be doing as much dps. We really have to sacrifice a tactic spot just to get grudge generation.

If your going to say that having great debuffs is crap because other people have great debuffs on destro, at least acknowledge that having great buffs is equally crap since they can be replace by potions, and group buffs from other order careers.

But dps BG's are terrifying if they use unstoppable fury. Team up with a melee you can kd and snare for you and it is horrific what you can do to a healer like a RP / AM.

[Nanji]

My view on the topic.

2h BG does have the biggest dmg potential out of all tanks due to having a wounds debuff (which is also utility), an anti detaunt, an ability with a very high tooltip dmg ( happens to be ae and utility aswell) and a reliable AA haste. Also being a double ressource class with less ap problems helps a lot.

AA haste becomes better the slower your weapon is, ideal for 2h weapons. Thats why, usually, tanks dont have it. IB has a very unreliable one. Buffing the dmg output significantly by doubling the number of autoattacks but still having the high multiplier for your aa dmg.

Wounds debuff, it is not as high as the mara one, but!!! you have the ability to spread it ae wise, applying snare aswell with a dok in grp. Without cd, unlike the chosen. So it is very unlikely to be cleansed (if it is possible at all, I dont know how it is in RoR).

Crimson Death, a high tooltip dmg (dmg base value) a BO can only dream of, even with shut yer face tactic. (the BO rarely puts points in this path to boost the tooltip dmg of shut yer face) (not saying the BO wouldnt crit for more on a low lvl AM without detaunt)
It is ae too. It is dmg and utility at once proccing snare (in grp) and wounds debuff (not likely to be cleansed). With only a 10s cd and can be used in combination with anti detaunt.

Knowing that BG is so strong on 2h, dmg wise superior to BO and Chosen, I highly doubt giving him kd is really necessary.

Why order needs more KDs than destru:
Due to the fact that destru has more speed increasing abilities. Usually 30% (25% on WE).
A 30% speed boost leads to -10% speed on destru side and -40% speed on order side with the assumption that both sides are snared. Order would be unable to catch up therefore they need hard CC. Without speed increasing ability snare is sufficient in most of the cases.
Please note that I am not saying destru doesnt need a KD at all.

Lets compare 2h BG to the other destru 2h tanks. Obviously you are switching out a snb tank for a 2h tank in order to deal more dmg, lets be honest, 2h almost always has less utility than snb.
2h BO would have KD if he wouldnt go for ae snare, which is pretty much the dumbest thing a destru grp could do. Dmg wise BO shines vs newbies (no detaunt, ultra squishy -> high crits), while BG can maintain a high dmg output on even skilled players due to anti detaunt and aa haste.
2H chosen, only interesting for tanks that dont know how to use challenge. Loosing fast moral tactic and defense for meh dmg. Wouldnt even consider it at all.