Return of Reckoning

bloodi wrote:Let me guess, is he killing racial warbands again?

Is that how they call the midget picnic wb nowadays?

TheSockPuppet wrote:Is that how they call the midget picnic wb nowadays?

Nice try. Bloodi is responding to a notorious greenskin warband leader.

blaqwar wrote: Only if you insist on ignoring the changes and going with your head through the wall, refusing to try something that involves more than just blobbing up on an Enemy addon flag and spamming your AoE. I really don't get these people crying about how their life is ruined with 1 experimental change.

HAVE ANY OF YOU CONSIDERED A LINE OF CONE-AoE SPAMMING PLAYERS INSTEAD OF A BLOB? HOW ABOUT A MELEE ENGAGE TRAIN? TRY IT, GET BACK TO ME, I'M CURIOUS.

Maybe the above will help...

Maybe you should read his posts before going ballistic. Lesti was just responding and already said in this very thread he's already got plans for a new formation out. You can't blame people for trying to continue playing what they actually like now, can you. As Wargrimnir pointed out, testing changes in our own way is just as welcomed.

So far there has not been a single answer on how blobbing can be avoided on objectives like keeps or BOs. Because it can't, really.
No amount of putting more objectives in a keep ever will, unless you implement something along the lines of "player explodes when close to ally for fatal damage". AoE zerg will turn into ST zerg, but zerg remains zerg.

It's the weird way of thinking with the pug SC implementation all over. Instead of taking a massive combat style gameplay for what it is and improve upon it, it gets bent into something it really shouldn't be. In the lake, every single player is just one soldier and should be treated as such. There is no need to cater to smaller groups when a way of small scale PvP is already in place, imo (I play RvR once per week for the event at most, and SCs or roam the others, just to clear myself off of bias)

Totes excite for the alluded to melee squiggie changes!

Definitely the most important thing to come out of this thread.

The sc quest drop off in the capital is a great idea

Panzerkasper wrote:How is this upposed to work with Slice/Razor strike + tactic? These abilities just hit an additional 2 people, so 3 targets. I dont really get it.

+ 1, I was surprised they wrote something about slice/razor + tactic

Like a constant organised ORVR practioner I should say about most obvious problems atm:
1. Formation. Now tanks should stay behind guarded targets and apply "hold the line" with backpedalling to the enemy (which means they will not parry and block anything), otherwise - no extra disrupt/dodge chance for allies, no timely CC for enemies.
With such formation its impossible to use strong, role abilities of tanks at all.
If tanks will not stay behind, sorcs/bws, SHs/SWs will not use their aoe abilities, otherwise their dmg will be gimped cause of hitting ally tanks and melees.
Changing formation for rdpses when in combat (24 vs x) is very hard (impossible) cause of friendly collision, snares.
2. Fights in close quarters like at keeps or tight BOs are impossible to adjust and tune cause collision there is much more and tanks just should stay infront and taunt all npces, hold and harass enemies. RVR design of WAR is all about that.
3.What about healers in such conditions? Its another horror story. They just cant heal such hugely scaled melee abilities. They should not do it. Their heal value should be okay for all conditions. Its impossible to predict that some melee will come outside of enemy wb, spam 2 times some scaled aoe then he will die instaly but his dmg will be like from hard morale dump.
Yesterday i saw 6 men who was defending BO against 18 people, nobody could kill them cause of ally hitting. Its not their skill. They were aoing against more numbers standing inside of "Doomstriker". Easy. Its balanced? And btw, its impossible to adjust on the way in combat cause everybody can use only 1 proper spec, no time and no possibility to respec in combat. (and why it must be btw?)
4. With this new system you are forcing people to disband for solo and maybe small scale, nothing more.
If 6 men cant coordinate with another 6 men, to face against more numbers its THEIR problem, this game is not about boosting conditions for people who dont want to coordinate with each other or lacking numbers (ganking gives more RP, dont want to follow orders, too shy for huge communicating etc). 6 men will not take keep, 6 men will not take enemy city. They should not, this game is about huge numbers, massive coordination, massive damage, huge fights, huge amount of different aoe abilities and aoe variations in the game. You will not love 24 people ST assist, i promise you, its not fun and its just retarded way to fight each other, people will use aoe morales anyways to kill huge numbers, for faster defending, faster conquering a BO when timer is already fading off. You should have opportunity to kill each other fast way with AOE, otherwise you will lose BO, will lose time, will lose momentum for something important in ORVR (kill and retreat before more numbers of enemies will come)
For 6 men we need something like arena at WoW with rankings. Its different realitys. Or If 6 men want to participate in ORVR, they should be a part of strategy plan of main WB, COORDINATING with others. They should not be able to face huge numbers and be a supermen cause of artificial dmg boosters for themselves/dmg reductions of their enemies. I dont know any good game with such mechanic. Thanks for reading

Krima wrote:

Panzerkasper wrote:How is this upposed to work with Slice/Razor strike + tactic? These abilities just hit an additional 2 people, so 3 targets. I dont really get it.

+ 1, I was surprised they wrote something about slice/razor + tactic

If you actually read the patch notes in full and Aza clarifications in the thread, you will notice that all of the listed abilities [including tactic boosted razor strike] have been boosted to 48 targets AoE cap. That is right,if you can get 48 players in a radius of AoE razor strike, you WILL hit all of them.

Tifereth wrote:Maybe you should read his posts before going ballistic. Lesti was just responding and already said in this very thread he's already got plans for a new formation out. You can't blame people for trying to continue playing what they actually like now, can you. As Wargrimnir pointed out, testing changes in our own way is just as welcomed.

So far there has not been a single answer on how blobbing can be avoided on objectives like keeps or BOs. Because it can't, really.
No amount of putting more objectives in a keep ever will, unless you implement something along the lines of "player explodes when close to ally for fatal damage". AoE zerg will turn into ST zerg, but zerg remains zerg.

It's the weird way of thinking with the pug SC implementation all over. Instead of taking a massive combat style gameplay for what it is and improve upon it, it gets bent into something it really shouldn't be. In the lake, every single player is just one soldier and should be treated as such. There is no need to cater to smaller groups when a way of small scale PvP is already in place, imo (I play RvR once per week for the event at most, and SCs or roam the others, just to clear myself off of bias)

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, what I said was to add to what Lesti said, not in opposition of it. I expressed my commiserations to BT in another post, since you guys seem to be the collateral damage of this change and it's not like your playstyle was optimised and overly effective as it was, also it has no immediately obvious workaround due to how Engi/Magus AoE tends to be 360° and would always scale in this change. My comment was aimed at the people screaming bloody murder because their precious way of blob-AoE is being changed.

As for the situation in keeps with this change you are right, there seems to be no clear answer and simply needs to be tested. On most BO's however, spreading out is a viable solution and should be considered.

BreezeKicker wrote:

Krima wrote:

Panzerkasper wrote:How is this upposed to work with Slice/Razor strike + tactic? These abilities just hit an additional 2 people, so 3 targets. I dont really get it.

+ 1, I was surprised they wrote something about slice/razor + tactic

If you actually read the patch notes in full and Aza clarifications in the thread, you will notice that all of the listed abilities [including tactic boosted razor strike] have been boosted to 48 targets AoE cap. That is right,if you can get 48 players in a radius of AoE razor strike, you WILL hit all of them.

Spoiler:

The following attacks ignore the target limit:

Slayer

Flurry, Wild Swing

Witch Hunter

Razor Strike (with tactic)

Swordmaster

Phoenix's Wing

White Lion

Slashing Blade

Black Orc

Da Big 'Un

Choppa

Lotsa Choppin, Wild Choppin

Marauder

Demolition

Blackguard

Monstrous Rending

Witch Elf

Slice (with tactic)

Spoiler:

Azarael wrote:

Sephirvine92 wrote:No limit on the damage increase ?

So this means, for a choppa/slayer, if he manages to get close to a zerg and let say, hit 20 targets, he will do 210% more damage ?
So 1 slayer/choppa can literally ONE SHOT a whole pack ?

I already see choppas/slayers, hiding on top of P1, and when door open, hit 1 button and get 5 renown rank.


Please put a 50% more damage limit or so :p

No. This is exactly the kind of behaviour that's desired. If you zerg to the extent that a Slayer can hit 20 people (and no allies) with either Wild Swing or Flurry, then you should take that increased damage. Even then, I highly doubt the like of Flurry and Wild Swing have the damage output to one shot people.

The whole point of this is to put the power in the hands of the smaller groups - to give them faith that they can move around without being walked over by some unorganized deathball simply because that ball has greater numbers. It's also to make sure that larger organized groups can do the same thing, even worse, by attacking a zerg from multiple directions, they gain rather than losing as they did before. The changes are intended to act as a check and not a core gameplay element.

Unless the deathball state becomes the ultimate weakness rather than the ultimate strength, deathballing will not stop.

Theseus wrote:Dont think it works that way, as they can only hit 9 targets at a time.... which means they only get a 45% boost.

The abilities to which the patchnotes refer have a target cap of 48.

Arbich wrote:morales are also affectes by this change?

Count pets as enemies/friends?

Interesting patch, but I think the numbers will be changed in the future.
Also I don´t understand why some front-ae-attacks are excepted from this change, even though the targeting is maybe a bit easier with this skills and having the recent changes in mind.

I believe morales are also affected. Forgot about that case.

Pets are not players, so they do not count for allies. They probably count as enemies.

The frontal AoE attacks listed are not exempt. They gain and lose damage as every other AoE attack does. The attacks listed are frontal AoEs on melee classes and have an expanded target limit (48) as they are intended to be used to drive the change. Most of them have extra range as well.

Oh sry for not having the time right now, to read the complete thread and all its toxic BS

Would be a nice idea to clarify this from the beginning.

Panzerkasper wrote:

BreezeKicker wrote:

Krima wrote:
+ 1, I was surprised they wrote something about slice/razor + tactic

If you actually read the patch notes in full and Aza clarifications in the thread, you will notice that all of the listed abilities [including tactic boosted razor strike out of 189] have been boosted to 48 targets AoE cap. That is right,if you can get 48 players in a radius of AoE razor strike, you WILL hit all of them.

Spoiler:

The following attacks ignore the target limit:

Slayer

Flurry, Wild Swing

Witch Hunter

Razor Strike (with tactic)

Swordmaster

Phoenix's Wing

White Lion

Slashing Blade

Black Orc

Da Big 'Un

Choppa

Lotsa Choppin, Wild Choppin

Marauder

Demolition

Blackguard

Monstrous Rending

Witch Elf

Slice (with tactic)

Spoiler:

Azarael wrote:
No. This is exactly the kind of behaviour that's desired. If you zerg to the extent that a Slayer can hit 20 people (and no allies) with either Wild Swing or Flurry, then you should take that increased damage. Even then, I highly doubt the like of Flurry and Wild Swing have the damage output to one shot people.

The whole point of this is to put the power in the hands of the smaller groups - to give them faith that they can move around without being walked over by some unorganized deathball simply because that ball has greater numbers. It's also to make sure that larger organized groups can do the same thing, even worse, by attacking a zerg from multiple directions, they gain rather than losing as they did before. The changes are intended to act as a check and not a core gameplay element.

Unless the deathball state becomes the ultimate weakness rather than the ultimate strength, deathballing will not stop.



The abilities to which the patchnotes refer have a target cap of 48.



I believe morales are also affected. Forgot about that case.

Pets are not players, so they do not count for allies. They probably count as enemies.

The frontal AoE attacks listed are not exempt. They gain and lose damage as every other AoE attack does. The attacks listed are frontal AoEs on melee classes and have an expanded target limit (48) as they are intended to be used to drive the change. Most of them have extra range as well.

Oh sry for not having the time right now, to read the complete thread and all its toxic BS

Would be a nice idea to clarify this from the beginning.

If you don't have time to at least skim the thread for official clarification [maybe total of ~ 30 posts in thread out of 189] why bother posting now and not latter when you DO have time do read through it?

All you do is padding the already long thread with even more posts that don't add anything of substance to the discussion, just repeat the already established facts.


Getting back on topic;
After a WB and keep defense yesterday in TM, I personally didn't notice a huge difference with the AoE potenciall of the BW, average dmg seemed to be in the same spot as before the patch, I will have more opportunity to test this today during guild event so will get back to you after that.