[KOTBS] "Destroy Confidence" tactic discussion

[Morf]

I hardly ever bumped into a kotbs on live who ran Destroy confidence its way down the line of tactic choices maybe 6th or 7th ? but thats because kotbs have so many good tactics, if u gave sm's destroy confidence i would imagine every group focused sm would run it.

If shamans were suppose to stand still and heal, spamming gheals like doks it wouldnt be a problem but that is not there role, they are on the move healers, keeping hots on players and only standing still briefly for a big heal here and there.
If it takes 105 ap(dsu,ey quit bleedin and dont feel nutin) and 3 gcd's its a bit much to have all them heals wiped out let alone take damage for every enchantment removed.

Kotbs have so many good tactic choices idk how any kotbs player could complain even if it was just removed(which im not saying it should be).

[Morf]

Do you play kotbs? Would you slot this tactic instead of +10% crit for you group? That's the answer.
I'm not opposed to changes though. As I said above, with the changes to other KOTBS tactic we may have a free slot in the future. Than we'll see a lot of use for this tactic and shamans won't feel good.
That's why I propose blessing removal instead of enchanment.
Before you say it's still op, don't forget that kotbs doesn't have any heal debuff but weak 25% aura, reducing only outgoing heal.
And will you dare to say that removal of 3 blessing (which may be hots, or may be not) renders a healer more useless than a 20sec 50% heal debuff that some tanks can apply... to multiple healers.

I play a kotbs and did so on live, i would slot Destroy confidence if there were 3 or so shamans in an sc, for general rvr no, because its situational, i would also slot it if there was 2 kotbs in group which was very common.

As for heal debuff, the aura has a 100% uptime, while the ib healedebuff(or bg) which im sure you are talking about can be cleansed and if the healer has a brain they will cleanse straight away when they see that icon at which point it takes 5 secs to reapply it.

[Tklees]

This is getting to be kinda priceless at this point. But I think most of us agree that changing it to be able to remove both blessings and enchantments but only one at a time is completely fine by me.

I am also ok with the tactic removing the cooldown on it for a slight ap cost increase.

The tactic is OP due to this Nishka.
Shaman uses 3 abilities on target A. (About 5 seconds to do all this)
Kotbs with tactic slotted uses DC on target A. (1 second)

Your argument is that the shaman will just reapply the hots. In the time it takes him to the kotbs can strip all of them off again. That's the reason. Do you understand?

Do you play kotbs? Would you slot this tactic instead of +10% crit for you group? That's the answer.
I'm not opposed to changes though. As I said above, with the changes to other KOTBS tactic we may have a free slot in the future. Than we'll see a lot of use for this tactic and shamans won't feel good.
That's why I propose blessing removal instead of enchanment.
Before you say it's still op, don't forget that kotbs doesn't have any heal debuff but weak 25% aura, reducing only outgoing heal.
And will you dare to say that removal of 3 blessing (which may be hots, or may be not) renders a healer more useless than a 20sec 50% heal debuff that some tanks can apply... to multiple healers.

If you were in a 6 man group. About to fight another 6 man group who had a shaman and a dok in it. Would you slot this tactic over let's say, since you seem to be a trispec guy (super punt, dirty tricks, EA, slice through), EA. So your group gets the 10% crit, the good punt, aoe snare and you can shut down the shaman completely. Or would you run EA?

[Nishka]

I hardly ever bumped into a kotbs on live who ran Destroy confidence its way down the line of tactic choices maybe 6th or 7th ? but thats because kotbs have so many good tactics, if u gave sm's destroy confidence i would imagine every group focused sm would run it.

If shamans were suppose to stand still and heal, spamming gheals like doks it wouldnt be a problem but that is not there role, they are on the move healers, keeping hots on players and only standing still briefly for a big heal here and there.
If it takes 105 ap(dsu,ey quit bleedin and dont feel nutin) and 3 gcd's its a bit much to have all them heals wiped out let alone take damage for every enchantment removed.

Kotbs have so many good tactic choices idk how any kotbs player could complain even if it was just removed(which im not saying it should be).

It's not about tactic, it's about creating a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedent
If devs will listen to the whiners and nerf into ground the tactic that is 6th or 7th down the line of kotbs tactic choices, just imagine what will they do to stronger tactic or skills?
Changing from enchantment removal to blessing removal weill release some pressure on shamans but won't make this tactic as worthless as some people want it to be.
"Give away 1/4 of your tactic slots and your skill will be removing blessings insteads enchantment" will make this tactic a joke. No one will ever waste a slot for something that others classes have for free, and which doesn't have much influence on the outcome of the battle anyway.

EDIT: And how on the earth this tactic gonna shut down 3 shams on scene?
EDIT2: Yes, I'd run encouraged aim. Because 10% permacrit on enemy it's more reliable than SC than can be parried, blocked or I'll miss it's cd. You know, knights have enough stuff to apply to a target and self, which takes time.
My group will have a real incoming heal debuff.

[Morf]

It's not about tactic, it's about creating a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedent
If devs will listen to the whiners and nerf into ground the tactic that is 6th or 7th down the line of kotbs tactic choices, just imagine what will they do to stronger tactic or skills?
Changing from enchantment removal to blessing removal weill release some pressure on shamans but won't make this tactic as worthless as some people want it to be.
"Give away 1/4 of your tactic slots and your skill will be removing blessings insteads enchantment" will make this tactic a joke. No one will ever waste a slot for something that others classes have for free, and which doesn't have much influence on the outcome of the battle anyway.

Im still confused as how you an complain, like i said i played a kotbs on live for pretty long time and if 1 of there awsome tactics was changed/nerf/removed there is plenty more to chose from, you are just spoilt and want it all

Also i suggest you play a shaman to see there are more downsides to + sides.

[Nishka]

It's not about tactic, it's about creating a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedent
If devs will listen to the whiners and nerf into ground the tactic that is 6th or 7th down the line of kotbs tactic choices, just imagine what will they do to stronger tactic or skills?
Changing from enchantment removal to blessing removal weill release some pressure on shamans but won't make this tactic as worthless as some people want it to be.
"Give away 1/4 of your tactic slots and your skill will be removing blessings insteads enchantment" will make this tactic a joke. No one will ever waste a slot for something that others classes have for free, and which doesn't have much influence on the outcome of the battle anyway.

Im still confused as how you an complain, like i said i played a kotbs on live for pretty long time and if 1 of there awsome tactics was changed/nerf/removed there is plenty more to chose from, you are just spoilt and want it all

Are you sure it's me complaining? Was it me who created 20 pages of whining about a non-avaible third-grade tactic? I'm proud of my capabilities

EDIT: I do play shaman sometimes. Quite easy, with all these escape tools you don't even need to bother about def and can go full wp.

[Morf]

Are you sure it's me complaining? Was it me who created 20 pages of whining about non-avaible third-grade tactic? I'm proud of my capabilities

EDIT: I do play shaman sometimes. Quite easy, with all these escape tools you don't even need to bother about def and can go full wp.

Hah well you know how these discussions end up, someone said x is op/lame y does this, in x situation y happens etc etc im just saying kotbs couldnt complain if it was changed/nerfed etc and the way you went off above just thought i would say my piece.

If you do play a shaman you will know how easy it is to counter them healing, having such long cast times that are easily interuptable you are forced to hot spam stopping very briefly to use a big heal which is why destroy confidence is a game breaker for shamans.

Rather changing destroy confidence i would much prefer shaman and am hots be "healing" but then ppl would argue shamans become even more op right ? and the tactic being pretty much useless.

[TenTonHammer]

Moving it to blessing insted of enchantment would just shift the issue from shammy to Zelot while simultaneously allowing order better access to tools to destroy absorb shields

Kotbs does not need a heal debuff DoK and BG both have 50% outgoing and as far as tanks and heal debuffs go thats all that all that should be there

real hdebuffs should be on dps classes

[Nishka]

Are you sure it's me complaining? Was it me who created 20 pages of whining about non-avaible third-grade tactic? I'm proud of my capabilities

EDIT: I do play shaman sometimes. Quite easy, with all these escape tools you don't even need to bother about def and can go full wp.

Hah well you know how these discussions end up, someone said x is op/lame y does this, in x situation y happens etc etc im just saying kotbs couldnt complain if it was changed/nerfed etc and the way you went off above just thought i would say my piece.

If you do play a shaman you will know how easy it is to counter them healing, having such long cast times that are easily interuptable you are forced to hot spam stopping very briefly to use a big heal which is why destroy confidence is a game breaker for shamans.

Rather changing destroy confidence i would much prefer shaman and am hots be "healing" but then ppl would argue shamans become even more op right ? and the tactic being pretty much useless.

Hmm... Never had a problem with using better-greener. It's actually very good heal
the strongest non-channeling single target healing spell in the game. Save maybe for AM. The career builder says shaman's greenerbetter is stronger than boon of hysh, but prob lying here.
...with fairly reasonable cast time (not the biggest cast time in the game) for amount of health restored. It's like... 70-80% of sorc's hp with 1 cast if you go full wp? Just don't do it while standing close to enemy and you'll be ok. Healers have 150ft healing range, why not to use it?
Also if you forced to used it, that usually means your target is getting a good focus and enemies care little about Your Greenest.

Spoiler:

You can even reduce the cast time to 0!

About changing shamans... Maybe it's better to change sham's heals to blessing, like other healers have?

Moving it to blessing insted of enchantment would just shift the issue from shammy to Zelot while simultaneously allowing order better access to tools to destroy absorb shields

Kotbs does not need a heal debuff DoK and BG both have 50% outgoing and as far as tanks and heal debuffs go thats all that all that should be there

real hdebuffs should be on dps classes

DOK's have the "blessing" type on their hots as well. Double checked this in career builder.
Well, give the same tactic to chosens. Why not?

[Morf]

Hmm... Never had a problem with using better-greener. It's actually very good heal
the strongest non-channeling single target healing spell in the game. Save maybe for AM. The career builder says shaman's greenerbetter is stronger than boon of hysh, but prob lying here.
...with fairly reasonable cast time (not the biggest cast time in the game) for amount of health restored. It's like... 70-80% of sorc's hp with 1 cast if you go full wp? Just don't do it while standing close to enemy and you'll be ok. Healers have 150ft healing range, why not to use it?
Also if you forced to used it, that usually means your target is getting a good focus and enemies care little about Your Greenest.

Spoiler:

You can even reduce the cast time to 0!

About changing shamans... Maybe it's better to change sham's heals to blessing, like other healers have?

You dont want to be 150ft away from the rest of your group, ideally 65ft(ish), this shouldnt need explaining(which puts u at risk of rkd and ensnare).
I know how easy it is to shut down a shaman or zeal for that matter on a kotbs because i do it. they cast gheal or st big heal and u taunt at around 1.5 secs, they try again and u use vicious slash at 1.5secs of the cast time, that gives enough time to burst 1 of there group members and if really needed you have smashing counter for a further 3 secs or repel darkness, and this isnt taking into consideration the setback from being attacked, so...your only option is to hot spam which is shutdown by destroy confidence.

Not asking for nerf/whining just stating how bad it can be.