Return of Reckoning

The trees for BS and QS look much better. I still hate the 65ft range and I still think Exploding Arrer can do without a knock back but otherwise I'm going to keep my mouth shut. Thank you.

teiloh wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:41 pm

Sponn wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:20 pm SW and SH are "mirrors?"
I thought there was a psuedo 4 way mirror between SH, WL, Mara, and SW.
Also I'm pretty sure SH is the only class that gets a knockdown, disarm, and snare by default (squig armor abilities).
Just seems like a false equivocation considering the psuedo 4 way

Yes. Core, a Squig has

1. Ranged, essentially undefendable no-GCD disarm
2. Ranged silence
3. Ranged snare
4. Point-blank AOE snare and self-punt
5. Melee snare (squig armor)
6. Ranged KD
7. Pet-cast KD (Squig)
8. Melee KD
9. Ranged Nearsight (range debuff)
10. Point-blank very high range AOE knockback

Do you mean the Drop That ability that is done by the pet when you say range disarm without gcd? It usually takes some time before it triggers because it happens on the next attack of the pet. My feeling is in no way "essentialy undefendable", on the contrary it often gets avoided, parried or something because it often misses. Or I just miss to see it's up. Times I want to use it is usually when a witch hunter or wl jumps on me and often times the pet is somewhere else attacking another target. So it's not really that good in my experience. It could be also that the wrong target gets disarmed if I'm too quickly to press disarm and still have another target. On SW on the other hand, if I get jumped I shortcut to assault stance and press disarm immediately with the same button since it's another stance bar. So SW works better in this aspect in my experience.

The ranged KD is not a core ability, it replaced Run Faster so you have to spec into it, just like Eye Shot on SW.

And the pet-cast KD has been removed now that the ranged KD has been added if I'm not misstaken.

But anyway, yes, both of these classes/specs has many abilities and many tricks to use, and so does most classes in this game. It's a big part of what makes them fun to play. And the lack thereof is a big part of why I find a spec like MSH a bit boring. I think this goes for both rSH and rSW but for SW I think all three specs are interesting in their own way and have lot's of choices. Assault SW for example still has a use for some bow and arrow skills, which is nice.

Neverever wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:33 pm

CeeJay89 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:51 pm

Neverever wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:30 pm

I haven't read after that point. Do you even know what you are talking about? Have you really put your fingers on a SH and tried its Big Shooting tree or are you just making assumptions on what you have read on the patch notes ? The senseless claims you make just points that it is the latter. Big shooting tree is not a viable tree at all. I main a SH ..

Stopped reading here because you're the epitomy of a biased player. Get over yourself. It's cool, though, as I've said before, fustrations will boil over, and when your beloved class receives a very well deserved nerf, I'll be watching for your whine post.

Nice way of avoiding what you can't actually answer.
I bet you are the amblem of the objectivity in that sense... Whining in all the possible threads about Destro classes and crying for Order ones. Very objective and without bias... Keep wishing little whiner. Don't forget, the most amazing wishes come true when you actually expect them the least .

Avoiding what? You literally provided nothing. You're a waste of time. You can't handle objection to your overtuned class. Cool. Provide something of substance that is actually objective sometime. I won't wait for it, because I know you can't. See ya baby boy.

Dabbart wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:55 pm RP's armor debuff tactic, the balance team at the time didn't include the resist debuff, as RP is Ele damage, and it was widely considered to be OP-AF to give Order an AoE stackable Ele debuff.

The RP's armor debuff does not stack despite being a tactic, I have personally tested this to verify it.

The logic of giving Order an AoE Elemental debuff = OP Bright Wizard makes no sense when Destro has both an AoE spirit and corporeal debuff for Sorcerers.

The loss of AoE heal debuff murdered the AoE DPS spec for both RP/Z.

I also didn't mention that as something RP was lacking compared to Z.

Z has Morale pump, RP has kd/stun duration and armor. Z ST dps has instant scoure, RP ST has snare proc. Seems fair.

Morale pumps are useful in every pvp fight and are very powerful, the RP's dwarf racial tactics are only useful in niche situations which make them a wasted tactic slot most of the time. Neither Scourged Warping (a core tactic) or Immolating Grasp (a spec tactic) are used as a healer.

I agree, RP needs a somewhat decent replacement for Grimnir's Fury, which is just dog ****. And both need a good long look at their rune/ritual's and RoB/Harbinger. Healing rune/ritual procing EVERYTHING and glowy hands being worthless to dance through(regardless of spec), along with severe cookie-cutter build limitations(even compared to other healers), makes them a little boring. Oh and being the only healer w/o a grp cleanse.

Minus the healing procs, Zs are bottom tier healers, RPs will always be nice with armor and KD/Stun tactics.

RP/Z are pretty cookie cutter but changing the current way Master Runes and Rituals work would cripple them and return them to being bottom tier healers.

If you are not feathering Rune of Breaking/Harbinger of Doom with the appropriate abilities to lower your chance to be disrupted you are not playing your RP/Z correctly.

I think mSquig should have its own separate health pool, so after it dies you have to then kill the squig herder inside. Its only logical.

ztil wrote: ↑Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:57 am Do you mean the Drop That ability that is done by the pet when you say range disarm without gcd? It usually takes some time before it triggers because it happens on the next attack of the pet. My feeling is in no way "essentialy undefendable", on the contrary it often gets avoided, parried or something because it often misses. Or I just miss to see it's up. Times I want to use it is usually when a witch hunter or wl jumps on me and often times the pet is somewhere else attacking another target. So it's not really that good in my experience. It could be also that the wrong target gets disarmed if I'm too quickly to press disarm and still have another target. On SW on the other hand, if I get jumped I shortcut to assault stance and press disarm immediately with the same button since it's another stance bar. So SW works better in this aspect in my experience.

The ranged KD is not a core ability, it replaced Run Faster so you have to spec into it, just like Eye Shot on SW.

And the pet-cast KD has been removed now that the ranged KD has been added if I'm not misstaken.

But anyway, yes, both of these classes/specs has many abilities and many tricks to use, and so does most classes in this game. It's a big part of what makes them fun to play. And the lack thereof is a big part of why I find a spec like MSH a bit boring. I think this goes for both rSH and rSW but for SW I think all three specs are interesting in their own way and have lot's of choices. Assault SW for example still has a use for some bow and arrow skills, which is nice.

Basically, Drop That doesn't eat your GCD, and to avoid misfiring you just have to be sure to mash "attack target" for your pet. Then since the buff on the pet doesn't go down until you land a hit, your pet can miss a few attacks and still have the disarm handy.

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:22 pm

catholicism198 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:20 pm Not sure about the SOR changes.
Not displaying numbers, at least during NA times, makes it really hard to gauge the likelihood that you'll run into friendly or enemy players.

What does each label translate to?
Scouts 6? --no action, especially when you factor afks
Parties 12? ---might have action, + above
Warbands 48?

If we wanted to have exact numbers we would have put exact numbers, obvious I'm sure, perhaps needed to be said at some point.

Obviously.
I was asking about the range that each of those represents.

Unlike EU, NA doesn’t always have 24-300 vs 24-300. They don’t even need SOR.

The last time I played during NA “prime time,” I spent 30 minutes roaming what was supposed to be the active zone and only came across two enemy and four friendly players.
A crude estimate lets us know if it’s even worth bothering.

Detangler wrote: ↑Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:26 am I think mSquig should have its own separate health pool, so after it dies you have to then kill the squig herder inside. Its only logical.

This might be a low-key genius idea as a morale or tactic. Choppa's have self rezz...

ReturnOfReckoning wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:37 pm - FInish ‘Em Off : This ability can now be obtained 9 steps into the Path of Big Shootin'. The range of this ability has been restored to 100 feet.
- Not So Fast : This ability can now be obtained 5 steps into the Path of Quick Shootin'. The range of this ability has been lowered to 65 feet, and it can be casted on the move. The initiative debuff has been removed from it.
- Red Tipped Arrer : This ability can now be obtained 13 steps into the Path of Quick Shootin'. In addition of the current effect , the ability will remove a damage absorbing effect from the target , and will deal damage every time it successfully remove it.
- Run Away! : This ability moved to Quick Shootin’ Core Abilities and is obtainable at level 21.
- Yer Bleedin’ : This ability duration has been reduced to 10 seconds , the tick interval are reduced to 2 seconds , and it will additionally debuff initiative. A 5 seconds cooldown has been added to the ability.

The current conditions and rotations feels a lot smoother after the latest patch, once you do get into range. Well done moving skills back to paths where they belong.

ReturnOfReckoning wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:37 pm - The Gas Squig will now increase range by 15 feet instead of 10%. *Note : the tooltip correctly says 15 feet but buffline still says 15% and will be corrected with next patch.

Grunbag wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:03 pm

Jabba wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:01 pm So your solution to the quick shootin problems that you created unnecessarily, is to give gas squig +15 ft range.

This is the pet that stops autos on the move, something that is clearly at odds with your 'mobile single target skirmisher gameplay', and does very little damage, and the damage that it does do, is aoe fluff.

That’s the idea : use gas squig for safe range , or use spiked for better pet abilties / bonus

What has the range nerf in the Quick Shootin' path got to do with the Big Shootin' pet?

- Is the goal to promote "stance dancing" on squig?

- If yes, is "stance dancing" really the master plan you want on a class with 30cd on pets?

It seems like a hail Mary attempt to try and fix the lack of range, by changing the range values of a pet not linked to the mastery path you are trying to promote. If you are committing to the current suicidal QS-playstyle, you have to use Spiked. Always. Everything else is a loss in damage output and no matter the value on Gas Squig will ever change that.

ReturnOfReckoning wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:37 pm - Explodin’ Arrer : This ability can now be obtained 5 steps into the Path of Big Shootin'. This ability is no longer a ground target ability and has 2 seconds cast time.

EA has gone from being useful in a few situations, despite it's low damage, to being completely useless all together in this rework. There are multiple questions that come to mind:

- Why does Squig Herder need another AOE kb?

- Why is this ability now a 2s cast AOE if you are constantly stating that AOE is for bouncin' only?

The damage or lack thereof on the ability combined with the amount of downtime in DPS and mobility, I still find it extremely useless. Unless you wanna roleplay choppa and handout free immunites all over the place. Not worth the spec point in it's current form. The old pre-rework version would synergise better and provide another insta ailment for RA, since there is CD on YB now.


Currently with this rework, it feels like the direction you guys want is that QS-squig herders aren't ment to take part in various aspects such as keep/fortress or instigate fights anymore, but their sole purpose is to gank somewhere where their limited range isn't at a huge disadvantage or to charge right behind destruction's melee train. So far, overall, you've succesfully managed to raise the damage and skillcap of the spec, while ultimately sacrificing QS-squig herders viability in multiple environments. In a toss up between having shorter range and more dmg or having more range and less dmg, it would be interesting to see what the community would choose. Both specs can work imo, pre-rework is just significantly less trivial and adds more enjoyment and options to the overall gameplay of the character.