Return of Reckoning

well first off was it a dps dok? 1v1 their pretty strong cause of sustain

secondly it was a dok you wont kill then without a HD, i think the bursting healers this in more pointed towards shams, zelot, the clothies

WW spec is not the way to go if you want a dps SM though

Shadowgurke wrote:WW spec is not the way to go if you want a dps SM though

Unless I am playing it totally wrong, I thought the same thing until I swapped to WW. Maybe this is true @ RR40, when you can spec into both trees but atm I think WW is the only viable way to really go....

With ED, it requires some situational awareness in setting up the ideal ED combo, you miss out on the armor buff + shield and when full specced into hoeth you can debuff resistances by ~ 600 versus MUCH less if you go for ED. Without fully speccing into hoeth, its a much smaller amount on the blade debuff and frankly your probably better off stealing stats than debuffing resistances which means Wrath is only gonna be debuffing them maybe 230ish? If a player is stacking 600 Spirit Res, with WW you can take them to 0, with ED youll be looking at still 400 Spirit res....

ED is great, dont get me wrong, AND its super fun to play but if a player is competent your ED isnt going to 100->0 then in 1 rotation. It can definitely proc for a few thousand damage if a few hits crit, but without silence and longer casting times AND better debuffs, I dont think it out DPSs WW. The 3 seconds of ED is massive burst, but WW build offers more utility, less set up, less situational awareness, more flexibility and more sustained damage output given debuffs boost ALL your damage...

When I was ED and switched to WW my total damage in games actually went up - I know it can be misleading however I tracked a long series of matches...


ALL that said.... Going back to this topic and using my two examples.

Knights are great, but SnB > 2H any day of the week as the 2H Knight (as proven above) even fully geared, deals crap damage. His benefit to the group is SIGNIFICANTLY less than a SnB.

SMs can do good damage, nothing "impressive" though, but their party utility is really lacking here....


This all (again) points to things like beefing up the 2H viability for tanks to make them more appealing in group settings.

For Knight this (IMO) would mean more damage and maybe lock certain things (like EA) to a 2H only tactic.
For SMs (IMS) this would mean some better party utility.

Both of these COULD be solved with a 2H equivalent of "HtL" of some form.... drains some of the tanks AP, requires 2H, provides some type of party buff.

A few thoughts to this:
- Increased AP/Morale gain
- Increased Run speed
- Increased AA speed

A move titled something like "Into the Fray" - which lasts 12 seconds, increases these areas for 12 seconds. Boom. Done. Now 2H has viable group benefits to the point it would make sense that if you had 2 tanks, 1 should be SnB and the other 2H for these benefits.

I still FIRMLY hold that Focused Offense is utter garbage given what you lose for the little you gain and would still recommend this be replaced with GWM available on ALL tanks and increased to (10% damage and 10% parry) to ADD to the 10% block pass through inherent on all 2Hs.... Then some form of "F.O." could replace those classes (like SM) that has GWM in their mastery tree.

We shouldn't try to infer conclusions from videos of T3 specs. Endgame you can spec Ether Dance (which IS the DPS SM spec) and put remaining points in Hoeth for resist debuff.

A lot of classes are missing out on dualspec goodies that become mandatory in their respective specs.

At this level, a Khaine swordmaster will deal more spike damage than Hoeth - but after ether dance, that's it pretty much. You're hoping for blurring shock combined with ether dance (taunt giving 30% extra dmg) crits to take out the enemy. I was assisting with a DPS AM and had ether dance crit 1k each time - combined with a blurring shock of several hundred each tick. Dude went from 100 to 0 in no time. This was a random occurrence though, due to relatively low level of crit/2nd tank was WW spec and, thus, reducing resists more than I could.

Knight's damage should remain lower, in my honest opinion, given that: a) they can remain much more tanky than other 2h tanks, and not sacrifice so many stats due to their tactics/abilities; b) they have so much utility it makes my SM sad. However I agree with a focused offense overhaul.

Also there's 2 ways to beat a DPS DOK - either you outlast him with bubble spec, or you try to outDPS. Ether dance - at this level - is, imo, mandatory if you go for the latter. You want to resist debuff, blurring shock, and save your taunt for his rend soul. It's a very close fight. Both specs I stack the **** outta parry.

Something people should note is that HtL only effects ranged damage dealers. If you make the 2H core ability into something too good, or good against everything, or what's meta you could potentially be making 2H tanks into the new s/b tanks.

iir the 6 man meta on live was virtually void of ranged dps at all, though I would hope it is different on this server.

peterthepan3 wrote:We shouldn't try to infer conclusions from videos of T3 specs. Endgame you can spec Ether Dance (which IS the DPS SM spec) and put remaining points in Hoeth for resist debuff.

A lot of classes are missing out on dualspec goodies that become mandatory in their respective specs.

At this level, a Khaine swordmaster will deal more spike damage than Hoeth - but after ether dance, that's it pretty much. You're hoping for blurring shock combined with ether dance (taunt giving 30% extra dmg) crits to take out the enemy. I was assisting with a DPS AM and had ether dance crit 1k each time - combined with a blurring shock of several hundred each tick. Dude went from 100 to 0 in no time. This was a random occurrence though, due to relatively low level of crit/2nd tank was WW spec and, thus, reducing resists more than I could.

Knight's damage should remain lower, in my honest opinion, given that: a) they can remain much more tanky than other 2h tanks, and not sacrifice so many stats due to their tactics/abilities; b) they have so much utility it makes my SM sad. However I agree with a focused offense overhaul.

Also there's 2 ways to beat a DPS DOK - either you outlast him with bubble spec, or you try to outDPS. Ether dance - at this level - is, imo, mandatory if you go for the latter. You want to resist debuff, blurring shock, and save your taunt for his rend soul. It's a very close fight. Both specs I stack the **** outta parry.

Some of these are fair points. I know T3 isnt T4, however that said... There is something wrong when a Knight with BIS 2H gets 1200 STR and crits for <800?

Ive also seen 1k AA crits on this same knight, when you combine debuffs or lower level/low armor players etc etc. This is the kinda of "fallacy" that people get locked into though, they only remember the "highs" and not the lows or REAL damage. This was painfully obvious in the last game I played. I recorded and had "ACT (advanced combat tracker)" that would record my PVPs and tell me "average" of an ability versus its "highs" and "lows" and how many times it hit, what % was crit etc etc. I would talk to people who "do leet deeps brah" and then run ACT with them and their average hit would be 50% of their "claimed average hits". If this makes sense.

Yeah on ED I get crits (with taunt) in the 600-700 range consistently. Combining two specs would make it pretty nasty.


I do take exception with something you did say

peterthepan3 wrote: Knight's damage should remain lower, in my honest opinion, given that: a) they can remain much more tanky than other 2h tanks, and not sacrifice so many stats due to their tactics/abilities; b) they have so much utility it makes my SM sad.

Any my only reason is I have seen Azarael post about nerfing how "easy it is for Knights" to buff their party AND multiple conversations surrounding nerfing Knights - especially the 20% crit SnB build.

So seeing how there is a STRONG chance these ease and strength of these Knights will be nerfed... I dont agree their damage should remain lower. In fact, I think it needs to be bumped by providing a few other bonuses, but also SM needs to be given better party utility.

A SM isnt going to fill any "META" in its current form. Not even the SnB, not any spec. Its kinda that "solo" play style thats good against PUGs but in good games against premades it doesnt offer anything. Same goes for the 2H knight.

We both agree, and it sounds like nearly everyone does that

peterthepan3 wrote: However I agree with a focused offense overhaul.

Which somewhat takes me back to ONE of the main points I made.

If F.O. was made "viable" or even just swapped with GWM across the board, it would beef up the 2H knight options and I dont think it would do much for SM given they already have very appealing tactics that this would just be one OPTION between many to choose from.

We can get into specifics on each class - which is maybe whats required to make 2H more viable....


Why I think we can look at SOME of this now though is while some of the specs get better (like ED due to dual tree) we still have pretty good perspective on the issue of SnB versus 2H.... So this isnt necessarily a discussion about "builds" per se if that makes sense....

As a Chaos Chosen player for many years I've always wanted to have :

- WL's AA speed buff tactic (to toy around, its fun to swing your heavy slow 2her as fast as 1h)
- Black Orks Crit Damage increaser
- Flanking (any and all mdps has it)
- Brute Force (flat STR buff - early on when you don't have good items might be useful - in fact there should be a pool of tactics available to every class like +STR, +INT, +WD, +Toughness, +WS, etc)
- Jagged Edge (dot on crit)

I mean those could be available either through focusing your build around certain tree type others should just be available to make your build a lil bit different than everyone else while compensating for things you lack from your items.

But I think that kind of talk is just an initial thing as the server developement haven't got to T4 yet.

Considering that chosens role with a 2h is to be able to apply crippling strikes better you dont need any of those things

TenTonHammer wrote:Considering that chosens role with a 2h is to be able to apply crippling strikes better you dont need any of those things

While I agree, Chosen get crippling strikes.... This is sort of the point though.... Your summing up a 2H chosen by saying all he does is C.S. and auras.

IMO Chosen is the best 2H class because of CS, doesnt mean there cant be some improvements to the class as a whole....

The fact that DFV > CS makes SnB much stronger than 2H.

I think the chosen servers as a great "road map" however of how other classes could work in that even its 2H is viable due to CS.

It turns an "offensive" into a defensive by reducing enemy damage on crits... Other tank 2H classes should have similar benefits to the group that make an impact as well....

TenTonHammer wrote:Considering that chosens role with a 2h is to be able to apply crippling strikes better you dont need any of those things

Well in most good RPG's/MMO's you arent tied to just one role/type of play as a class (focus on a word GOOD GAME/WELL DESIGNED). So saying that "Chosen has Crippling Strikes and doesn't need anything else" is like saying wtf do you need a car for since you can move around the place with local transportation system like metro, bus or tram.

It's good to have options. As long as you don't favour one class above others e.g. Chosens get crippling strikes, and like 1-3 other things they can put in... BUT SO DO THE OTHER TANKS.

I do hope I'll see less of "omg nerf this class its OP!" and more of "oh wow this class works great now, lets get other classes up to that level too!". Don't take my toys just because you have less than I do.

P.S. remember when Rending Blade had no cooldown and every chosen was swirling around like a ballerina swishing things left and right? xD