Return of Reckoning

Epo wrote:Making a 6v6 queue is all well and good until all the premades get sick of getting farmed by enigma/gankbus.

Therefore Enigma/gankbus should get a separated third, own queue.

.....

Ninepaces wrote: I don't see where you're going with this.

Forgive me Nine, I apologize for not being more clear. As a backdrop, I have this theory that the perceived skill of an individual or individuals within a premade has more to do with the fact that six coordinated individuals are grouping up farming unorganized pugs that fill the majority of sc's / rvr over any other factor. In a game like this, very few fully balanced compositions are actually ever online gaming. Jaycub and Aggrot spoke about this notion as well, it seems to be common in an mmo for a myriad of reasons (not enough people in a guild online, class composition not in balance, etc...)

So, if you are in a fully balanced premade composition, perhaps your skill is linked more towards the fact that the opposition rarely, if ever, has a matched balanced. Usually its just pugs, solo que'rs, leechers, no healers, no tanks, etc... - the list you mentioned. Or, its a partial group, without ideal composition. Basically, it's coordination farming unorganization. If you steamrolled these unorganized pugs in your fully balanced comp day in and day out, you could almost over-inflate your own ego, or maybe even begin to deify yourself into some ridiculous god-like status (i know what you're thinking, and yes, only a complete clown would do something like that - but it happens, trust me).

Now, with that said, I don't believe in making theories if I have no sound evidence to back it up. With this in mind, I started looking at my own experiences in a premade group. I noticed that I tend to do very well in these situations... which somewhat confirms the theory that coordination appears to farm unorganization. But, as you have clearly pointed out, tend does not equal always.

Ninepaces wrote: Premade isn't god mode dude, its just 6 guys with access to the same classes and abilities and gear everyone else has access to. Especially in 12 v12 and only 6 are premade it is anything but auto-win.

You see - sure, you may tend to do well against the majority of pugs but it's no guarantee. You may run into a more fully balanced composition premade. I believe this would be the exception and not the norm because the majority of sc's are just unorganized pugs... but none the less, it can happen.

I appreciate your time because it helped confirm what I had previously believed regarding premades. For a moment, I was actually beginning to question if maybe I was confused on what tend and always meant, based on the inept ability of some to actually comprehend basic english. Your confirmation that a premade isn't necessarily god mode and that it doesn't necessarily always win - gives me peace that the mis-understanding of my previous theory is really just a learn to read problem.

Dude, you're on fire.

tomato wrote:Dude, you're on fire.

Did RvR happen?
(yes I am trolling)

ok serious now ....
I do not think it is right to punish players who sit down, create a 6 man, merge their abilities to win and have fun, by consigning them to a lesser pop bracket.
Personally I will always solo que. Not once so far in RoR have been in a premade. You can tell ... no heals, because healers are HoT healing one person at a time, tanks who do not guard (yesterday in a pug grp of 3 dps and 3 tanks, not one dps had guard on it). Same day two WP's would not leave spawn to heal the dps because we had no tanks ...
If solo players do not want to learn to play better, or simply are in an sc to get whatever they want and only fight when it is optimal success rate of 80% or more ....
Why punish the 6 man groups?

also....

Many times I will solo que, get in an sc with 5 other solo players, and the second party is a premade. Without them, the sc would have been lost, but they carried the fight and we won against other premade and 6 solo players.
Once in a blue and ultra rare moon, 12 solo players with limited healing or tanks will beat a pre-made grp as well. THOSE are fun fights.

The beauty of RvR in WAR is you never know what you will get in SC's. It is what makes them exciting and a hell of a lot more fun. Especially since the RvR lakes are full of war bands that scatter, do not work together, take sc pops or simply just zerg anything that moves ...even if it means they lose a zone.

(PS: please fix warbands so I can do what I used to do on pay servers. I would make a warband and if people did not follow me or did not fight together, I would kick them out in middle of fight just to watch their heals disappear)

I really like how some people use the word "punish" to describe the idea about balancing premades vs premades.
Ok, so you think it's alright to punish people who just want to play a few battlegrounds, by forcing them to play against premades and get roflstomped?

"you never know what you will get in SC's" - Press TAB and you will know exactly when will you get in sc. If your team has a premade, it's easy win. If enemy team has a premade, its crushing lose.

Most of you are missing the point of this thread. Premades aren't that bad as long as they're actually trying to do the objective instead of farming noobs for 15minutes.

Mursie:

Your theory doesn't really explore all possible situations.

Skill is about maximizing your contribution through the use of the tools available. Making your 1 person character do more and contribute more and be better than 1 person with the same tools of the opposing faction. So in situations where the numbers are balanced or close to balanced the added value of the skilled player tips the balance in your factions favour. Premades are the pinnacle of this concept because that setup magnifies the "value" of the 6 characters it makes up. A 6 man is worth more than the sum of its parts. That is why premades exist.. to maximize the input of each person to the whole, whether at sc level or at oRVR.

Your analysis doesn't explore all situations. Its stops at the most basic and favourable situation for a premade... fighting unorganized groups of the same number. I mean the premade still has to be good, it is still afterall 6v6. But, thats not a measure of skill. The skill is in how other situations are dealt with. Premade vs Premade. Premade vs WBs. Premade vs other premade + pugs. Premade + pugs vs premade + pugs (who can sacrifice their pugs to best effect), and so on. Most premades run in oRVR, and queue SCs when there is nothing to do.

Your theory is flawed because player skill actually IS relevant. I've been in a few failed premades to know that rolling a good class composition and VOIP doesn't mean anything. The people still have to both know HOW to play, and have the competence to execute. Having bad opponents helps, but its not the most important factor.

Nishka wrote:I really like how some people use the word "punish" to describe the idea about balancing premades vs premades.
Ok, so you think it's alright to punish people who just want to play a few battlegrounds, by forcing them to play against premades and get roflstomped?

No one is forcing them to play battlegrounds.