Return of Reckoning

Super interesting stuff with the dok/WP. The SL change makes me sad though. The only thing that i'm worried on with the DOK/WP is the 100% undefendable attacks. Now I know you need undefendable attacks to make lifetaps work reliably but does it have to be 100% undefendable or could it be like 50% chance on undefendable?

100% undefendable attacks mean's your completely self sufficient and don't need the aide of other classes to help make your class shine even more.

Super interesting changes thou. Super interesting.

footpatrol2 wrote:Super interesting stuff with the dok/WP. The SL change makes me sad though. The only thing that i'm worried on with the DOK/WP is the 100% undefendable attacks. Now I know you need undefendable attacks to make lifetaps work reliably but does it have to be 100% undefendable or could it be like 50% chance on undefendable?

100% undefendable attacks mean's your completely self sufficient and don't need the aide of other classes to help make your class shine even more.

Super interesting changes thou. Super interesting.

I'm also concerned with their lifetaps being undefendable. I understand it on Rend Soul/Divine Assault since you can interrupt those anyway with taunt or other skills. However I don't think SR/TE should be undefendable since they are spammable and instant. Being undefendable basically leaves you with no way to countering them except for CC (heal debufss are useless), but immunities make this harder than it sounds.

I'm also concerned with their lifetaps being undefendable. I understand it on Rend Soul/Divine Assault since you can interrupt those anyway with taunt or other skills. However I don't think SR/TE should be undefendable since they are spammable and instant. Being undefendable basically leaves you with no way to countering them except for CC, but immunities make this harder than it sounds.[/quote]

I think they kinda need to be undefendble, healing from 5 feet range of the oposition is allready risky enough, you get pelted by rdps melee dps, CC permasnares etz. This was the main reason melee healing didn't work in the first place. If you add the element of chance to be parried/blocked aswell I think we're back at square one imo. The damage of those skills were reduced due to the attacks being undefendble as far as I understand.

Akalukz wrote:so are all armor bonus halved when in healing spec, like the 480 from 3 piece merc, or buffs from another player etc?

EDIT: Also why was there speed boost giving to the WP but not the DoK, am I overlooking something?

All armor bonuses and debuffs are halved.

WP has a speed boost because Prayer of Righteousness deals damage, but Covenant of Celerity deals damage and snares. This has long been an imbalance. The speed boost only affects the WP.

roadkillrobin wrote:

Spoiler:

Penril wrote:

footpatrol2 wrote:Super interesting stuff with the dok/WP. The SL change makes me sad though. The only thing that i'm worried on with the DOK/WP is the 100% undefendable attacks. Now I know you need undefendable attacks to make lifetaps work reliably but does it have to be 100% undefendable or could it be like 50% chance on undefendable?

100% undefendable attacks mean's your completely self sufficient and don't need the aide of other classes to help make your class shine even more.

Super interesting changes thou. Super interesting.

I'm also concerned with their lifetaps being undefendable. I understand it on Rend Soul/Divine Assault since you can interrupt those anyway with taunt or other skills. However I don't think SR/TE should be undefendable since they are spammable and instant. Being undefendable basically leaves you with no way to countering them except for CC, but immunities make this harder than it sounds.

I think they kinda need to be undefendble, healing from 5 feet range of the oposition is allready risky enough, you get pelted by rdps melee dps, CC permasnares etz. This was the main reason melee healing didn't work in the first place. If you add the element of chance to be parried/blocked aswell I think we're back at square one imo. The damage of those skills were reduced due to the attacks being undefendble as far as I understand.[/quote]

But now you are creating a situation where every melee healer can simply hurr-durr any target he wants. Imo the melee healer should also be assisting main target since that target is generally a prio target (=less parry and block to begin with) and is debuffed by dps and tanks (even less change for block and parry). I can understand for the sake of consistency that toughness and armour are ignored, but you are basically ignoring what tanks have to spec 40 of their their renown points in which makes it OP.

Also it ignores all parry and block morales.

Rebuke wrote:

roadkillrobin wrote:

Spoiler:

Penril wrote:

I'm also concerned with their lifetaps being undefendable. I understand it on Rend Soul/Divine Assault since you can interrupt those anyway with taunt or other skills. However I don't think SR/TE should be undefendable since they are spammable and instant. Being undefendable basically leaves you with no way to countering them except for CC, but immunities make this harder than it sounds.

I think they kinda need to be undefendble, healing from 5 feet range of the oposition is allready risky enough, you get pelted by rdps melee dps, CC permasnares etz. This was the main reason melee healing didn't work in the first place. If you add the element of chance to be parried/blocked aswell I think we're back at square one imo. The damage of those skills were reduced due to the attacks being undefendble as far as I understand.

But now you are creating a situation where every melee healer can simply hurr-durr any target he wants. Imo the melee healer should also be assisting main target since that target is generally a prio target (=less parry and block to begin with) and is debuffed by dps and tanks (even less change for block and parry). I can understand for the sake of consistency that toughness and armour are ignored, but you are basically ignoring what tanks have to spec 40 of their their renown points in which makes it OP.[/quote]

I'm of this opinion too tbh, the increased damage but defendable (or the healing portion affected by the armour mitigation, one or the other). That way you need to choose your targets properly, but you get a bit better payoff for putting yourself in harms way so much, it does do more healing than a backline healer at present but not so much more that I would think it's worth being in the thick of it like it is, especially as you can no longer run Covenant of Tenacity to give yourself a little more survival if you wish to life-tap.

The ability to do some proper healing when out of range due to the Strength->Willpower proc is certainly a nice change that mitigates some of it's downsides.

Azarael wrote:

Akalukz wrote:so are all armor bonus halved when in healing spec, like the 480 from 3 piece merc, or buffs from another player etc?

EDIT: Also why was there speed boost giving to the WP but not the DoK, am I overlooking something?

All armor bonuses and debuffs are halved.

WP has a speed boost because Prayer of Righteousness deals damage, but Covenant of Celerity deals damage and snares. This has long been an imbalance. The speed boost only affects the WP.

Thanks Az, great clarification as always from you guys.

The problem I see arising is that there is practically no counter against the melee heals. I guess full ranged comps can be counted as some sort of counter. But you can just switch to backline stance or just hit the tank. Problem with removing the fact that they are undefendable crashes down the whole concept. Against any "normal" healing you have the counter of heal debuffs. One idea could be to let the melee heals be effected by outgoing heal debuffs only. This would bring an imbalance in order versus destro as DoK cannot cleanse the best outgoing healdebuff (from the IB) while WP can cleanse the outgoing heal debuff from BG. So that might have to be solved in that case. But in general there always needs to be a counter against something, whatever it is.

I agree but still i will be at -500 willpower when i am at vitality and cause of lack of strength on my current gear the bonus i get is +0. When on small scale that wont be so much a problem but on big scales RvR i will still be the backline healer that will stay on Tenacity to heal because changing Coventants gives me bigger disadvantage than the -50% armour.
Thats why i believe the sets for DoK Wp must redisign for stats term.
If at least i get 250 willpower half the willpower i loose when changing from Tenacity to vitality that will be a good start for balancing the healing side of DoK/WP.

Korthian DoK of Phalanx

zumos2 wrote:The problem I see arising is that there is practically no counter against the melee heals. I guess full ranged comps can be counted as some sort of counter. But you can just switch to backline stance or just hit the tank. Problem with removing the fact that they are undefendable crashes down the whole concept. Against any "normal" healing you have the counter of heal debuffs. One idea could be to let the melee heals be effected by outgoing heal debuffs only. This would bring an imbalance in order versus destro as DoK cannot cleanse the best outgoing healdebuff (from the IB) while WP can cleanse the outgoing heal debuff from BG. So that might have to be solved in that case. But in general there always needs to be a counter against something, whatever it is.

Not really since the BG heal debuff is spammable, so it doesn't matter much if it gets immediately cleansed.

Outgoing healdebuffs affecting melee heals is an interesting idea.

edit: Several people in this thread need to l2quote.