Shaman builds, RR, etc.

[roadkillrobin]

Two things:

- I don't claim this mechanic will solve every problem - only some of them. If you would prefer to stick with a mechanic whose sole applicability is allowing DPS Shaman / DPS AM to toss an instant self heal / group heal with crap stat contribution then that's on you.

- I don't find WP/DoK to be the valid target of any healer comparison. Let's not forget what those classes are - they were designed originally to engage in actual combat to build resource, and given benefits (quick-casting group heal, simple execution on heal side, medium armor) to aid with that. Then their concept was violated without a corresponding adjustment to their heal mechanics and they became ludicrous. If your point is that DoK/WP will still be better than AM/Shaman even with a tweaked mechanic, then you're probably right. Is that a problem with AM/Shaman or a problem with DoK/WP, or with both?

There are still things which can be done within this framework - Fury of Da Green / Energy of Vaul are platforms ripe for abuse, given that they're defined as 2s cast 5s cooldown AoE taps and da Green / Vaul trees are crap. I was very reluctant to make it known that I was experimenting with things precisely because I knew people would want any change to run to their own personal tastes and be a complete, one-iteration solution. It doesn't happen that way.

I think you're forgetting that the WP/DoK heealer builds we're playing with now isn't the same as they were at launch.
Both classes had their groupheals cut in half and given a strong ST heal. They are basicly paying x2 for their groupheals then they was originally designed to do and this actually make up for the Book regen imo. I think DoK and WP are probobly the best comparison for heal preformance we got in this game coz they simply work. And the other 4 healers need to be brought into the same standards as them preformance wise, RP and Zealot are very very close to their standards of healing. Shamans and Archmages is in a completly differeent tier of healing due to the core issues i've stated. But when you look at the tools they got in comparrison to RP/Zealot their abillties is just straigt up worse since their helaing is based on brute burst heals wich can be healdebuffed, combine that with having problem to cast those heals and it's just failure.

[Bozzax]

Having played all healing classes I'd just wish for shams/Ams having a solid core AOE hot or the ability to cast the 2,5s AOE heal on move (or both).

[footpatrol2]

Warning wall of text

I'm going to share this with the community because players think shaman's are underpowered and because Azeral released what he thinks should be done to help the shaman class.

Here is something we in black toof have been working on and we did it last night. You probably saw the group in action if you played NA time.

Please exit your mixed group 6 man scale mentality. Please enter the 12 man racial group mentality.

This is the Greenskin Magical Cannon
This won't work in a 6 man setting because you need some type of frontal pressure. You need that from your 2nd group.

Take a 6 man shaman group and have them all take the ere we go again tactic. Take 2 mork 3 gork and 1 da green.

Do a coordinated ere we go all conducted at one time. Ere we goe's stacks... the damage is a front loaded buff.

One coordinated ere we goes is 36 ere we goes in total. If all shaman's have ere we goe's again tactic slotted thats 72 Ere we goes in total. We lead in with a toughness buff brain bursta. Da green shaman hits everyone with Scuse me Max elemental debuff or we drop a bunch of sticky feetz some are MAX elemental resist debuff...by the way, sticky feetz and scuse me on par with the max discord chosen resistance debuff. All dps shaman's conduct a single target burst cycle on one target. All the shaman's do a coordinated Bunch o' Waaagh on a single target. Your releasing 72 Ere we goes on one target that is elemental debuff at max value and toughness debuffed by 240 and the dps shaman's have mork's touch tactic basically all on one timestamp. Your intensely stripping away any type of WP/RP hot or absorb and further turning it into damage. WP/RP are blessing based. Dps shaman's shatter blessings.

We were instantly killing targets every 10 sec's. Why 10 sec's? because the cooldown of Ere we go is 10 sec's. INSTANTLY droping targets. You have to hold the line against us to survive. Full health to zero. We were doing it yesterday. I suspect the damage output is on Par with taking 4 bright wizards that are single target. We can also do a crap ton of AoE.

In a greenskinz warband setting this would be your group 3 or 4 of your warband. You need frontal pressure so you don't get walked over. That group also has 5 sticky feetz. That group has a INTENSE amount of tricks also. 6 mork sez stops, 6 instant reze's... The list goes on and on. Intense morale pumping if you want.

This is how far premade groups can go and how exotic your groups can get. I ran 12 man premade groups for YEARS. There are similar tricks like this in all the races. I would take this group in as my 2nd group in a 12 man or as my 3rd group in a 18 man.

If your focused on mixed groups your going to miss out on all the racial group synergy. One ere we go is trashy and is looked at as a bad ability. Your only getting one Ere we go in a mixed group usually. There is SO much stuff that is overlooked. It is overlooked because everyone is intensely focused on mixed 6 man scale. I don't focus there. I focus at 12 man same race scale.

This is just a taste of the juicy We in Black Toof have been working on. If you want to be part of groups like this we are always looking for shamans. We've got a hell of a lot more that is WAY more nastier then this. I'm only giving this away now since it looks like there might be changes to the shaman. I don't think the shaman is doing that bad. Its about the context of what your trying to due and what your trying to achieve. Have any of the previous posters tried this? I suspect they haven't.

So maybe... we haven't as a community tried everything that this game can do.

[Penril]

What part of "the game will be balanced around 6+ groups" and "Shaman/Am are not competitive in a 6-man" don't you understand?

Oh, and a 12 man with a few KotBS, Engies & BWs would stomp your 12man to the ground. Have fun killing 1 target every 10s when they can use Magnet, increase your cast time by 50% with Land mine and fill you up with a bazillion dots you can't cleanse. Maybe add some AMs for uncleansable Heal debuff, and a SM or 2.

[footpatrol2]

Do you think i'll let you get close enough to magnet me? I can conduct what I wrote at 100 feet with barely any set up. What is your range of what your talking about.

[Penril]

Do you think i'll let you get close enough to magnet me? I can conduct what I wrote at 100 feet. What is your range?

Yeah, in the forum I will never catch you, racial groups are OP and Shamans are perfectly fine. Have you arranged a date to test all of this with Morf yet?

[footpatrol2]

I talked to him. He said he's willing to play with us a bit.

I don't care about 6 man's. I focus on 12 man's. I think it is bad for the game to focus on 6 man's because it is horrendously unbalanced at that level. The scale is too small. I don't think the RoR dev's should try to balance this game at that level. I think it would be a mistake.

[Penril]

So you refused.

[footpatrol2]

No i did not.

[Kali14]

The current set of mechanic changes were based around the following principles:

- Working to reduce 1on1 potential where possible.

If I make good build, can solo kill an Hero 29 lvl. People probadly think because this is an bug or something. It's not, must know what is needed and have big experience. But in this same build can fast die in 1v1 with each dps, tank or another healer in dps spec. If anyone think AM 1 v 1 should be restricted I suggest him first go and try 1v1 with WE or against SH! Maybe AM is OP in 1 v1 but only on tier 1-2 where most players don't have yet heal debuff and different skills like silence or knockdown.