DPS spec tank/healer Hypocrisy

[Dabbart]

We do play other games. Lots and lots of them. But guess what? We all decided to return to War, maybe not inspite of it's flaws, but because of them?

Stop considering your opinion as fact. Cause it's not.

Edit: and for the record, yall should really try to pick and choose where you drop those walls of text. Yea, obviously, sometimes a topic calls for a somewhat lengthy reply. But dear god, at least TRY to be concise in some of your posts. at the very least include a TLDR, especially if your gonna drop epic text bombs every single time you post.

[lilsabin]

We do play other games. Lots and lots of them. But guess what? We all decided to return to War, maybe not inspite of it's flaws, but because of them?

Stop considering your opinion as fact. Cause it's not.

Edit: and for the record, yall should really try to pick and choose where you drop those walls of text. Yea, obviously, sometimes a topic calls for a somewhat lengthy reply. But dear god, at least TRY to be concise in some of your posts. at the very least include a TLDR, especially if your gonna drop epic text bombs every single time you post.

ok

[Nefarian78]

Im a little surprised that very smart people cant see this. Do people not play other games? Why do you think nearly every new game (MMO or not) has gotten rid of this type of system. Look across the board at popular MMOs:
- BDO - doesnt have a "tank" each class "keeping themselves alive using their own classes defense or escape skills".
- WoW - Has tanks, but mostly involves CC effect for PVP, self bubbles/healing all things we kinda see in ROR, except no "Guard" function.
- ESO - Has "tanks" sorta... Nothing like Guard.

An upcoming game

Spoiler:

Camelot Unchained, from CityStateGames

will feature another System which is around proactively blocking projectiles, buffs / debuffs for your group mates to reduce incoming the damage. The Class there will not be called Tank, but heavy fighter.
Some heavy fighters will be able to guard targets or have a very similiar mechanic. Since I don't want to advertise anything I put it in a spoiler.

Spoiler:

proof Source: Youtube: Class Trio Reveal: Heavy Fighter 24:52

So the System is still not dead as you described it.

Some classes will have something very similar to guard or they will just have guard.

Oh and for my enjoyment I'll edit my post right here. One of the most popular mmorpgs of all time

Spoiler:

DaoC, played since 2001/2002 on a montly abbonement system

is running guard, same goes for

Spoiler:

Uthgard

You compare Reinhards ability with raising the shield to guard... the right comparision would be "Hold the Line!".
It functions in the exact same way.


I bet everybody who plays this game here has played different games, and every game has different strategies to make things work and to make "tanking" or "frontlining" or "heavy fighting" and so on possible.

A bit off-topic but gotta reply to that.

Spoiler:

You know that Camelot Unchained could die really, really quick right? That game is far too ambitious, trying to resurrect the 10+ yrs old MMORPG style and trying to appeal to a community of gamers that doesn't exist anymore, or have jobs, families and all that stuff to take care.

It's no secret that hardcore pve/pvp doesn't mix well with an audience that mostly has jobs or families or simply doesn't want to play that kind of MMO anymore.

There's a reason that the MMO industry (a dieing industry if i might add)stopped from releasing 6hrs long raids that require a 24 step attunement quest, and it's simply because the target audience of the modern MMO genre has changed.

Just take a look at WoW for example. just to enter Molten Core (the first raid in classic WoW) you had to complete a quest that took you to the longest, most cancerous dungeons of all WoW aka Blackrock Depths and Blackrock Spire. Back then the people that played WoW didn't care much about that because they had time to invest. Then you skip some expansions and all the attunements are gone, raids are much quicker (and more entertaining since boss are harder than classic-tbc) PvP is a lot simpler and you can get to max lvl in 6-7hrs.

Tldr: Targeting an audience that isn't there anymore is not the way to create a succesful MMO.

[ragafury]

Ye. And now it's how to measure success.
Is the ambition here to attract many ppl and have the biggest active playercount possible like an amusement park or to deliver a tuned and better version of war.

And to WoW. I hear from many of my friends who played the expansions that all new expansions beside legion where total flops. Legion is the closest to TBC, which they describe as the best shape WoW ever had.

[Crust]

I feel like Wow only hosts flocks of hardcore folks anymore - tried it again two years ago and left after a month.

Its not fun when teens/kids (be it grown ups or not) tell you what to do in battlegrounds being all kitted out... whereas my time is limited, i cant do arena every night, nor raid or anything like that. I play to have fun and have alot going on offline...

Which leads me to my point, what is the difference in a guy playing tank/dps or heal/dps versus a single spec class that doesnt know what hes doing... your opinions is what.

It takes only some basic objective thinking and just a smidge of logic to realize if people playing a spec you dont like is maybe your own problem and not theirs, you might not be playing how other folks want you to play aswell. Who cares... i dont, and i have fun playing this (in moderation)

[zumos2]

Spoiler:

Th#gatekeeper , you are my hero man, u need to tell me where you find that energy to keep on repeating your ideas over and over again ...

Redbull gives you wings my friend. Actually a big ol cup of coffee and a DEEP desire to see ROR become a great game.

Right now the PVP MMO scene is in a pitiful spot. There are NO good PVP "MMO" games out there with solid combat and fun gameplay. Neverwinter WAS one of those (for me) but died as it started to become Pay 2 Win and have tremendous gear gap between the "average" and BIS players. I could take on an entire team of enemies with my Guardian Fighter or Great Weapon Fighter and kill them all 5v1. So basically a White Lion on steroids in ROR

Anyways, ive been hoping around trying various games and there just isnt anything "good" out there. ROR could be a REALLY good game for those players looking for an awesome PVP experience. Its actually perfect for a casual player. Leveling doesnt take long. Focus is on PVP with little to no PVE. Gearing (for competitive gear) doesnt take long.... (Get Ruin, epic weapon quests, and BL and you are competitive)

This is why I say ROR has an identity crisis. Its almost like at its core the game is designed FOR "casual players" but then the combat mechanics are designed for hardcore players.

This is ANOTHER reason people leave... The hardcore players get bored when they dont have their "carrot" anymore (gear) and the casuals get bored because they cant even play solo or duo very well at all, and a good amount of content is largely "inaccessible" to them.

So this campaign I am on, is to MAYBE..... doubtfully, alleviate SOME of the casual pain by looking at the #1 culprit for the "combat mechanics" ruining it for casuals - Guard.

Then ALSO (in another thread) I have been trying to encourage DEVs to re-think RVR mechanics and rewards to give the "hardcore players" more to play with and do. So everyone wins.

But thats the issue the game has.

Due to combat mechanics and HEAVY reliance on other "roles" you are forced to play in teams, which turns off MANY casuals or semi-casuals (note: this doesnt mean BAD players, just that they have less time to play each week). Then on the flip side, the "hardcore" guys who play 6 hours a day, already have all the gear, maybe on multiple characters, and just are bored 24/7... ZergStomping in RVR and SCs, with no "competitive" play going on... Most zone locks are massive "zergs" of population on 1 side (that I see) and same in SCs... get 1 premade, just ROFLSTOMPS and people AFK in spawn.

neither of those are "positive" gameplay experiences.

So I really hope Torq (who is the lead DEV) takes a step back, looks at "who is the target audience of ROR" and looks to identify what ROR is supposed to be, and who it caters towards. It seems like a previous post saying "we arent going to make it any more casual/pug friendly" says just that... So maybe thats the goal... Which if thats the case, might as well seal the coffin for ROR because itll never have more players than it has now and the project will eventually die, BUT! Youll likely have another 1-2 years of PUG farming and ROFLstomping in RVR before that happens, so enjoy!

i understood you since the begining ... but , look at all those other people who doesnt get the point here ( i am sorry , but i hate repeating myself , expecially for something thats clearly explained in like 3-4 pages) thinking it s a L2P issue , i just cant . Lol , and i admire your courrage to keep trying to explain to them that the problem is PEOPLE DONT HAVE TIME TO """"LOOK"""" FOR OTHER PLAYER TO START HAVING FUN , SINCE NO CLASS CAN DO **** IN THIS GAME BY THEMSELVES . IT'S LIKE HAVING A CAR , BUT BEFORE LEAVING HOME EACH MORNING YOU NEED YOUR NEIGHBOURS TO INSTALL YOUR TIRE , AND IF YOUR NEIGHBOOR IS NOT HERE , YOU ARE JUST **** UP .
anyway , good luck man

Except you dont have one or two neighbours but hundreds. And there are also classes that can do stuff alone. Rdps is great for open and quite OK in scenarios. A good healer can also carry many scenarios.

[dansari]

Ye. And now it's how to measure success.
Is the ambition here to attract many ppl and have the biggest active playercount possible like an amusement park or to deliver a tuned and better version of war.

Whynotboth.gif

Honestly I think that's what everyone's goal is.. because if you tweak the things that people don't like then you will have a large, active player base and you'll make a better version of WAR (NA prime time would be much more fun). I think you want to appeal to both casual and hardcore players and I think there is a middle ground by adjusting the things that solo queue players don't like while not making the game easier, just more enjoyable.

[ragafury]

Ye. And now it's how to measure success.
Is the ambition here to attract many ppl and have the biggest active playercount possible like an amusement park or to deliver a tuned and better version of war.

Whynotboth.gif

Honestly I think that's what everyone's goal is.. because if you tweak the things that people don't like then you will have a large, active player base and you'll make a better version of WAR (NA prime time would be much more fun). I think you want to appeal to both casual and hardcore players and I think there is a middle ground by adjusting the things that solo queue players don't like while not making the game easier, just more enjoyable.

I'm starting to feel like the gatekeeper, but ok.

I like what devs are doing for casusal players. and I don't want to ruin anyones experience. and if there is a way that order gets hindered taking empty keeps in NA prime (aka middle of the night for me) I would totally support it, but please, not by mutilating core mechanics which define this oldsql mmorpg experience. not everything must be sacrificed for popularity and simplicity. As I've written there should be arriving even more gear which is achiveble for everybody without that much time investment. People level faster as on live. When I leveled I was overwhelmed how fast sc's opened up.

I know that graveyardshift is a problem for NA players, like ping is for oceanic and so on. but will it hook ppl in who played that game on live if there old chars are completly changed mechanicwise? will it make things interesting and hard to achieve for new players if everything is smooth and easy achieved? Is it good if a game is simplified down and there is nothing to master? idk perhabs I thought wrong about the community. than I need to be really curious on what is comming up changewise.

Nobody is locked out of any content atm. everybody can enjoy the endgame if he has a level 31 character.
I played games there were such gear gaps that people couldn't play anymore with each other, because there character did 1/5th of there damage or healing and so on. nobody is locked out of anything

And I can't and don't want to follow the argument: making stuff easier is more "FUN". Perhabs put effort in playing a game, and tryhard could be fun too. I mean you can farm everything in this game atm. by "autofollow" your group in a pug wb if you don't want to tryhard or queue 2xxx sc's and lose every single one of them with 500-100 for a full set. yes it takes long. but np carrot on the stick.

urgh another wall of text added to this thread. feelsbadman.

[th3gatekeeper]

An upcoming game

Spoiler:

Camelot Unchained, from CityStateGames

will feature another System which is around proactively blocking projectiles, buffs / debuffs for your group mates to reduce incoming the damage. The Class there will not be called Tank, but heavy fighter.
Some heavy fighters will be able to guard targets or have a very similiar mechanic. Since I don't want to advertise anything I put it in a spoiler.

Spoiler:

proof Source: Youtube: Class Trio Reveal: Heavy Fighter 24:52

So the System is still not dead as you described it.

Some classes will have something very similar to guard or they will just have guard.

Oh and for my enjoyment I'll edit my post right here. One of the most popular mmorpgs of all time

Spoiler:

DaoC, played since 2001/2002 on a montly abbonement system

is running guard, same goes for

Spoiler:

Uthgard

You compare Reinhards ability with raising the shield to guard... the right comparision would be "Hold the Line!".
It functions in the exact same way.


I bet everybody who plays this game here has played different games, and every game has different strategies to make things work and to make "tanking" or "frontlining" or "heavy fighting" and so on possible.

Ok I watched this.

So "System which is around proactively blocking projectiles, buffs / debuffs for your group mates" sounds awesome! 100% onboard with this. I will give you the benefit of the doubt here that you just dont understand my position. Because I never said Tanks shouldnt do this sort of thing.......

I even said I would rather them ditch guard and rework/things like challenge/taunt/HTL etc.

Now, when it came to "guard" they said straight up "I wont work exactly the same way, and not everyone will have it, but they will all have their own versions of how they do this...."

Also you posted DAOC, which was 2001/2002 - my point exactly (no new games do this)

Now we get to Reinhardt. HTL is probably the closest thing yes, and I would LOVE to see HTL buffed and guard "reworked". HTL is an awesome ability that is much more active than anything. One thing I dislike about HTL is people can "reverse HTL" Also, when it comes to Reinhardt, he is a massive shield wall, but if you get too close it can be very lethal with his Fire Strike (ranged damager) as well as his "Charge" that allows him to close gaps, and not to mention his daily that used in combination, can mean a QUICK death for anyone who plays too close... Where as a SnB Tank in this game, who uses HTL, really wont be able to say.... "drop a healer" if he happens to get close enough to that healer. Frankly a SnB tank cant do much at all in terms of damage.

Again, the GOAL of a "rework" here would be to look at making Guard a more proactive - active ability rather than something you merely put on someone, then are forced to "stay within 30 feet of them". THIS is what I am talking about.

I am NOT saying "tanks shouldnt be blocking projectiles, buffs, debuffs, etc"

In fact. Something I believe I posted was making Guard like Vigilance for your group on a CD. Something like "lasts 10 sec" 15 sec CD. "Reduces all damage by 50% for party members within say... 50 feet".

Not only does that sound super fun. Its "active" and benefits the tank himself AND his entire party. He is actively "buffing, reducing damage, etc" however there is now a "downtime" of 5 seconds where you could punt the tank. You could also make it very AP heavy to restrict use (so another counter guard would be to AP drain a tank).

I mean there are so many other cool ways to adjust this.....

Like literally I can guard and /follow and boom... thats it. zero "skill" involved in that. Its not active, its boring and only requires positioning. Now "guard swapping" is different, however as I said, I think thats a bad mechanic IMO that turns tanks into pseudo healers constantly watching health bars and many times worrying more about trying to say within "range" of their party than "pushing the frontlines" - which is what tanks WANT to do...

Point being. I am convinced, though conversations and experience, that ONE of the reasons this game has low population, is gamers are primarily made up of people (today) who dont always have long play times and dont ALWAYS want to feel "forced" to group up to be viable. So people do this. Sometimes they have people online to play with, and will group and Guard works fine. Other times they dont, they find themselves in SCs or RVR without reliable guard or healers, and get nuked, get frustrated and eventually stop logging in.... If there were a guard re-work, so that it was more fun to use, more active, that provided full party benefits or rather aoe benefits (many ways to do this) I dont think it would really impact the RVR Warbands going around, and lets not fool ourselves thinking there is a 6v6 "competitive" community as they have largely left the game.... Where as it is more fun for all players now. Tanks included who dont feel like they are someones "pet" or "guard bot" but rather a true front line fighter who is "buffing/debuffing and blocking projectiles" all of which sounds FUN to me!

[th3gatekeeper]

And I can't and don't want to follow the argument: making stuff easier is more "FUN".

Ummm.... who made this argument? Not I.... I think there are ways to make things more fun, without making the game "Easier" I have offered multiple ideas, and would be open to really anything that makes guard more fun/active ability... Things like taunt/challenge are perfect examples of how tanks should play. You push the front line and debuff enemy damage unless they attack you - awesome!

Now.... add guard in there and your job is to what? stay 30 feet of someone at all times like a "guard dog"? Well that doesnt sound all that fun now.... See one of your RDPS getting nuked and your supposed to swap guard and run to him? Ok, that doesnt sound fun to me either.... Other games that have this sort of thing will have like an "intercept" in which you can "sprint" to your target to then defend him. Well that sounds more fun! Or ways to make it more "active" are more fun....

There are MANY ways. My "guard aoe aura" idea was merely ONE idea to keep things "as similar to LIVE but better" however there are many that would work....