[Suggestion] Making guard less OP

[Dalgrimar]

I once saw someone post that the core foundation and mechanics of AoR will remain intact in RoR.
Funny how all of a sudden you guys are taking a 180* right turn. (Nothing is confirmed ofc)
There are ALLOT of ways to counter guard, it just require's more "smart/better" play.
It is very hard to denie the fact that the reason this topic exist has clearly to do with a l2p issue

[Ktana]

This topic and reactions on it are not a good sign.

First of all in all PvP games bad players are the most loud speakers. They whine on forums every minute and QQing about everything but their hands. In their mind they are real decent skillfull players but in reality they are not.

Take for example sc2 and their official statistics. Decent players is master, grandmaster league and they are less then 2% of all players and you never saw them whining on forums. 99% of all whine are from bronze league players, from bad players. Some of them playing sc2 for a years but they are still bronze- gold league because some people never learn.

Obviuosly its a big mistake to listen to such people and no one at balancing team does. Because its problem not in game and balance. Its problem within retarded heads and paralized hands of this players.

IMO developers should be focused on buffing weak classes instead of nerfing everything what whiny "wooden league" players ask.

[Gobtar]

Is guard powerful yes. I don't think it is too powerful, I believe it is the key component of what makes a tank a tank (Guard, Challange). Healers heal, DPS have bust damage and engaging skills. One could argue that tanks have superior CC abilities but taking a quick glance at the other classes in the game, most tanks have less CC, and they have to make concessions to get KDs or superior punts etc.

Guard does have opportunity cost and counterplay. it's more than just punting someone away, all you need to do is control the tank while applying pressuring. Guard as mentioned is limited by range and mobility of the tank, floating guard is a skill that determines the value of the player. Changing where the pressure is applied is essential, too many people go path of insainity (Trying the same thing, expecting a different result). It's not just the tank's guard that is keeping that player alive, it's focus healing.

many tough fights come down to a tank's ability to float guard, immunities mean CC skills are not a reliable tactic to clear DPS off of a target. Having good components makes for a good team. Many premade vs premade SCs is about finding the weak link, and apply pressure. Sometimes beating a guard out is as easy as keeping him snared and picking smart targets.

It was mentioned that changing guard so that you can't guard while KD is a bit of a point of frustration. Knocking down a tank already limits their ability to float guard, and it keeps the tank stationary so their guardee is leashed, (if they are kiting as is the case with cloth healers and range, then KDing a tank has already mitigated his guard potential as he will have to flee to get back in guard range). Knowing that all you have to do to negate a guard is tab target KD, means the game will favour range. IF this change was going to go through, KDs would need to be seriously readdressed. (DPS going back to 2s KDs)

[mursie]

I once saw someone post that the core foundation and mechanics of AoR will remain intact in RoR.
Funny how all of a sudden you guys are taking a 360* right turn.

I'll tell you why they call it xbox 360. Cause after you play that crap once, you'll want to turn 360 degrees around and walk away.

[Azarael]

A fix that favors zerging and ae heal comps like dok/dok and wp/wp which we wanted to move away from.

I won't deny that this is the case. I did not make that change because I happen to agree with it (as group healing only becomes more valuable when the guarding tank is taking more damage, as you have pointed out) but because it was a bug.

[Shadowgurke]

Healing is horribly strong. But it also has counter play.

Incoming and Outgoing heal debuff. Disable of healer. Out of range healing. Interrupt on cast. etc...

Where is this misconception that guarding has no counterplay coming from? Targetswitches, punts, snares? Or just assisting? How is a heal debuff counterplay btw?

To start with 2) It is not exactly 90% but very close to that in terms of guard defence yes. Not for 'some' reason, but for the fact that they simply can stack their defense so ridiculously high through morales, tactics and base skills + the RR skills (which got buffed compared to AOR actually)[ RR defense skills are not mitigated by int/str/Balli anymore, while they were back on live]

9,4% parry from WS that duelist gives at level 35. 20% parry from gear + maximum renown. 11% block from gear and maximum renown. 18,6% block from blockrating.
Adding up: 29,4% parry, 29,6% block. That is far away from 90% avoidance, and that is with 40 renown points into defensive stuff (no initiative) Some tactics boost that a bit, like 10% from Blorc, but still far away from 90%
I don't add morales because I don't know of a single (used) morale that boosts block or parry chance.

Formulas used (hopefully correct ones)
[Weapon Skill Value/(Level*7.5+50) *13.5]
Block rating of shield / [(level * 7.5 + 50)*5] = Block %

I would prefer it if you used the term "fix" to describe the fix for blocking/parrying Guard damage while knocked down. All other damage is rendered undefendable when you are knocked down, and this was a bug fix.

A fix means something was bugged. A change means you change something. We are in a bit of a difficult scenario because technically you (the devs) don't get to decide what was intentional or not by the original devs. To make changes more transparent I would suggest not using the word fix when chaning something from original Warhammer.

To help some people who are missing the point: My congratulations on your being able to counter Guard. I don't think anyone said Guard was ever uncounterable (though I did suggest that its counters outside of excessive force and super punts are limited). However, it DOES bolster certain aspects of the game (group healing, 2/2/2 and super punts among them), and it is the effect upon balancing other classes in light of this that interests me.

How would reducing the amount of damage mitigated by the tank NOT benefit group healing? Furthermore, what is so wrong about 2/2/2? That its better than 1/3/2? So what if 1/3/2 becomes better? Are you going to nerf it then?

[mursie]

Is guard powerful yes. I don't think it is too powerful, I believe it is the key component of what makes a tank a tank (Guard, Challange). Healers heal, DPS have bust damage and engaging skills.

Agreed - always weird to me that healers can heal anyone.. dps can dps anyone... but tanks can only put their guard application on group mates.

Let tanks play their tanks. Guard should be available to use by a tank on anyone they deem.

[Azarael]

I would prefer it if you used the term "fix" to describe the fix for blocking/parrying Guard damage while knocked down. All other damage is rendered undefendable when you are knocked down, and this was a bug fix.

A fix means something was bugged. A change means you change something. We are in a bit of a difficult scenario because technically you (the devs) don't get to decide what was intentional or not by the original devs. To make changes more transparent I would suggest not using the word fix when chaning something from original Warhammer.

This is already the case. If I call anything a fix, it was to bring it in line with AoR, and I have even made this distinction clear in other threads (wherein I've also said that nothing else will change until T4, which stands). I was told that on AoR, damage cannot be defended against by a player who has been knocked down, and forgot to include Guard's unique defense check into the original fix.

To help some people who are missing the point: My congratulations on your being able to counter Guard. I don't think anyone said Guard was ever uncounterable (though I did suggest that its counters outside of excessive force and super punts are limited). However, it DOES bolster certain aspects of the game (group healing, 2/2/2 and super punts among them), and it is the effect upon balancing other classes in light of this that interests me.

How would reducing the amount of damage mitigated by the tank NOT benefit group healing? Furthermore, what is so wrong about 2/2/2? That its better than 1/3/2? So what if 1/3/2 becomes better? Are you going to nerf it then?

Reducing the damage mitigated by the tank helps group healing, a point which I've already conceded. Accordingly, increasing the damage taken by the tank is irrelevant and should not be done.

2/2/2 as defined by pure tanks, pure dps, pure heals locks out classes / specs that do not conform to pure lines. This is certainly an issue for anyone who wants to actually balance the game.

[mursie]

Where is this misconception that guarding has no counterplay coming from? Targetswitches, punts, snares? Or just assisting? How is a heal debuff counterplay btw?

Guard does have existing counterplay. It has been said that the existing counterplay is somewhat limited (ie super punts).

My point is that healing has a much larger number of counter plays. You noted that healing is strong. Yes, it is... but there are a number of ways to counter strong healing.

I don't believe this thread is asking for guard to be removed... i think it has basically dwindled down to... "are there other counter plays that could be added/tweaked for guard"

[dirnsterer]

How would reducing the amount of damage mitigated by the tank NOT benefit group healing? Furthermore, what is so wrong about 2/2/2? That its better than 1/3/2? So what if 1/3/2 becomes better? Are you going to nerf it then?

1/3/2 was amazingly good and fun in the olden days already.