Return of Reckoning

Penril wrote:Honestly, i don't know. I liked having FP affect my snare. You can't abuse it since FP has a long CD (unless you use a tactic). And if you use it to catch an enemy, you will have few seconds left for KD/AW/Torment.

Yeah.... that's what i would do. I think that was No. 3 on your list (FP ignores positional requirement on WH/WE snare).

I disagree, so you have one or max 2 guaranted snares with a cooldown of 50 sec, while slayer, choppa and other mdps have a guaranteed snare every 10 sec and charge.

Nemoel wrote:

Penril wrote:Honestly, i don't know. I liked having FP affect my snare. You can't abuse it since FP has a long CD (unless you use a tactic). And if you use it to catch an enemy, you will have few seconds left for KD/AW/Torment.

Yeah.... that's what i would do. I think that was No. 3 on your list (FP ignores positional requirement on WH/WE snare).

I disagree, so you have one or max 2 guaranted snares with a cooldown of 50 sec, while slayer, choppa and other mdps have a guaranteed snare every 10 sec and charge.

Yes. But other mdps snares have a 5ft range. Even with charge, they can always be punted/champ's challenged/KD/snared (assuming their snare immunity is on CD) before they even get close to their targets (or disarmed if they actually do). WE/WH won't have that problem.

Also, don't forget we will get a self punt at lvl 40. You can easily use FP, throw a dagger to a rdps to snare him, self-punt off a tank that is keeping you snared and land pretty close to the rdps you snared.

Penril wrote:

Nemoel wrote:

Penril wrote:Honestly, i don't know. I liked having FP affect my snare. You can't abuse it since FP has a long CD (unless you use a tactic). And if you use it to catch an enemy, you will have few seconds left for KD/AW/Torment.

Yeah.... that's what i would do. I think that was No. 3 on your list (FP ignores positional requirement on WH/WE snare).

I disagree, so you have one or max 2 guaranted snares with a cooldown of 50 sec, while slayer, choppa and other mdps have a guaranteed snare every 10 sec and charge.

Yes. But other mdps snares have a 5ft range. Even with charge, they can always be punted/champ's challenged/KD/snared (assuming their snare immunity is on CD) before they even get close to their targets (or disarmed if they actually do).

WE/WH can be punted/champ's challenged/KD/snared as well. WE/WH have no charge so maybe lowering the max range down to 45ft with a 10 sec cooldown will give the ablilty the needed balance. One of the developers said in another thread that self punt will not work like on live. so maybe you can not even self punt yourself to the target.

Nemoel wrote:

WE/WH can be punted/champ's challenged/KD/snared as well. Maybe setting the max range down to 45ft with a 10 sec cooldown will give the ablilty the needed balance.

Yes, WE/WH can also be CC'd. I don't see how that counters anything i said though. Please explain, if possible.

Another reason i don't like having a 10 sec CD on it is because maybe a SW/BW manages to KD your target, giving you 3 secs to position yourself for a good snare. But unfortunately, you had just used it 3 seconds ago and now it is on CD. Target gets up and proceeds to strafe-kite again.

Penril wrote: Yes. But other mdps snares have a 5ft range. Even with charge, they can always be punted/champ's challenged/KD/snared (assuming their snare immunity is on CD) before they even get close to their targets (or disarmed if they actually do). WE/WH won't have that problem.

Also, don't forget we will get a self punt at lvl 40. You can easily use FP, throw a dagger to a rdps to snare him, self-punt off a tank that is keeping you snared and land pretty close to the rdps you snared.

Well it would be unique thing to have. Like even with a ranged snare like that WE could be punted/champ's challenged/KD'd/snared before getting even close to the NOW snared target. Both have their merits I would say but I am personally leaning towards the need to use FP myself. As it is, WE is in a decent enough spot as whole, only the catching ability is total garbage in my eyes. And putting FP to affect dagger-throw would not be a humongous buff, you would be wasting FP to snare someone most likely and barely managing to do the damage/knockdown that the FP gives to you. Hence it would make it somewhat of a tactical choice. Last thing I want to see is WE to turn into a slayer which a braindead comatose patient can play to effective degree.

dirnsterer wrote:

Penril wrote: Yes. But other mdps snares have a 5ft range. Even with charge, they can always be punted/champ's challenged/KD/snared (assuming their snare immunity is on CD) before they even get close to their targets (or disarmed if they actually do). WE/WH won't have that problem.

Also, don't forget we will get a self punt at lvl 40. You can easily use FP, throw a dagger to a rdps to snare him, self-punt off a tank that is keeping you snared and land pretty close to the rdps you snared.

Well it would be unique thing to have. Like even with a ranged snare like that WE could be punted/champ's challenged/KD'd/snared before getting even close to the NOW snared target. Both have their merits I would say but I am personally leaning towards the need to use FP myself. As it is, WE is in a decent enough spot as whole, only the catching ability is total garbage in my eyes. And putting FP to affect dagger-throw would not be a humongous buff, you would be wasting FP to snare someone most likely and barely managing to do the damage/knockdown that the FP gives to you. Hence it would make it somewhat of a tactical choice. Last thing I want to see is WE to turn into a slayer which a braindead comatose patient can play to effective degree.

Exactly. Even though all mdps classes are susceptible to CC, WE/WH at least would be able to snare the target, allowing other groupmates to catch up. Maybe one of your tanks? If so, he will be able to snare/Kd/champ's that target. Something that he wouldn't have been able to do without the WE/WH ranged snare in the first place.

Penril wrote:

dirnsterer wrote:

Penril wrote: Yes. But other mdps snares have a 5ft range. Even with charge, they can always be punted/champ's challenged/KD/snared (assuming their snare immunity is on CD) before they even get close to their targets (or disarmed if they actually do). WE/WH won't have that problem.

Also, don't forget we will get a self punt at lvl 40. You can easily use FP, throw a dagger to a rdps to snare him, self-punt off a tank that is keeping you snared and land pretty close to the rdps you snared.

Well it would be unique thing to have. Like even with a ranged snare like that WE could be punted/champ's challenged/KD'd/snared before getting even close to the NOW snared target. Both have their merits I would say but I am personally leaning towards the need to use FP myself. As it is, WE is in a decent enough spot as whole, only the catching ability is total garbage in my eyes. And putting FP to affect dagger-throw would not be a humongous buff, you would be wasting FP to snare someone most likely and barely managing to do the damage/knockdown that the FP gives to you. Hence it would make it somewhat of a tactical choice. Last thing I want to see is WE to turn into a slayer which a braindead comatose patient can play to effective degree.

Exactly. Even though all mdps classes are susceptible to CC, WE/WH at least would be able to snare the target, allowing other groupmates to catch up. Maybe one of your tanks? If so, he will be able to snare/Kd/champ's that target. Something that he wouldn't have been able to do without the WE/WH ranged snare in the first place.

I still don't like the idea with FP but thats only my personal opinion. You would have 50 sec cooldown only for a single 5 sec snare, then the burst is missing when you reach the target because you have no FP ready, maybe stealth is on cooldown too, that means no opener. I personally would not use FP for that snare. My suggestion is to minimize the range from Throwing Dagger. Maybe from 5 ft to 10 or 15 ft.
I would also like to hear different ideas
BTW: nice objective discussion with you guys *thumbsup*

My issue with having FP work on Dagger throw / Snap shot is, how are Ranged now supposed to effectively kite?

With the way it currently works. I get jumped out of stealth, Knocked down and I'm sitting at 25% Hp before I stand up. I then need to rely on having the tools available to create distance. (M1 Punt, Root, Knockdown ect).

If I don't have M1 up, and I root, theres a GCD and another two AA hits and 1 encounter hit, I'll now be at close to 8% HP give or take.

Lets say I manage to create distance, at that low HP I'm not running, I'm now walking. So I have to pot to even consider being able to generate distance. As a Bw I then need to build mechanic, in order to hope I can even deal damage.

Oh and whats better than that? Smart We's will spec for the Disrupt ability, so there goes 7 seconds of perma disrupt where you literally cannot do anything either.

The burst capability on WE / WH is more than enough to make up with the fact that Daggers / Snap shot does not need to be affected by FP, Imo.

giving WH/WE a reliable snare would be too cheesy and is a bad idea imho.
every other gap closer (besides pounce & wingz of heaven) are predictable. Stealth isn't. That's why a reliable snare for those classes wouldn't be justified. You already got a stun on both classes in T4 in literally every viable build. Your group can easily catch up in those 3 seconds if they decide to go for a specific target in the backline. 3 seconds are more than enough to catch up for the tank and/or especially dps classes with charge. A quick ChCh and the target can't escape.

Indeed, stealth is unreliable gap closener as it can be. For the stealther too. Sometimes people see you miles off, sometimes not, sometimes aoe flying around breaks it, sometimes does not. I would be all for scrapping that bloody stupid mechanic and perhaps building something other on top of it. But suppose that would be a way way too big undertaking. At least it does not break in middle of an empty zone randomly anymore like it used to during the beginning of Warhammer.