Return of Reckoning

freshour wrote:

dansari wrote:Yep - I think gear is the biggest factor for "player burnout" and the RVR system is the biggest factor for "how much fun I have." I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive.

The main things that have been mentioned to counteract this: change bag rolls to fragment system and increase the medallions in each, so something like the below. (For the below scenario, imagine there is new currency you can exchange for conq, subj, and genesis; call it a "Seal of the X" for this example).

• 1. Gold bag = 1 piece of conq OR a "Seal of the Conqueror" / 50 conq medallions (I'd prefer to go the Seal of the Conq route so that people don't feel so burnt out with rng. Basically you'd need to get 6 gold bags and you'd have your set. No duplicates. This gives you the option to choose a seal or the 50 medallions if you've already finished your set)
  2. Purple bag = 1 piece of subjugator OR a "Seal of the Subjugator" / 40 conq medallions / 1/2 of a Seal of the Conqueror (so that even if you have all the subjugator you want you can still work towards conqueror)
  3. Blue bag = 1 piece of genesis OR a "Seal of the Genesis" (to exchange for any genesis piece) / 20 conq medallions / 1/3 of a Seal of the Conqueror
  4. Green bag = 1 piece of the other jewelry set / 10 conq medallions / 1/5 of a Seal of the Conqueror
  5. White bag = 5 conq medallions / 1/5 of a Seal of the Conqueror

In this system, you could get 6 gold bags, 12 purple bags, 18 blue bags, or 30 green/white for full conq. So even if all you ever get is green and white you still feel the nice progression of working towards your set. I believe this would be a much better system for casual players. As it stands currently, say you have 30-40 people in a zone -- you're likely going to get 1-2 gold, maybe 1 purple, about 2-3 blues, and a handful of greens. That's roughly 25% of the actual zone population that contributed time and energy towards the capture of a zone that received rewards they are likely to be happy with. The other 75% probably feel like their time was wasted, and this gets progressively worse when you scale up the amount of people in the zone.

To counteract the "having fun in zone" piece, right now I think the simplest solution is to change the BO mechanics (decrease the timer so that it is never above 3min to claim), and change the way VPs are given so that the zone locks relatively quickly after the keep is taken unless the other realm is able to hold BOs for a certain period of time. All other suggestions take more time to test and implement, even though good suggestions (in my opinion) have been shared.

single greatest thing you have ever posted. I bet it would be pretty difficult to find a single person on this entire server other than that ones in charge who don't want something like this - that disagree.

/s /s /s /s /s /s /s /s /s /s - it was a light jab, I apologize.

But, do we know if a system like this is even possible? If so... I can't really see a good argument against it thinking purely logical and using reason and stuff. Only argument is either, "No" or something about them liking the RNG on RNG aspect. But regardless, I'm saving this post because it is such a pure gold mine of an idea!!!!

Edit: I really hope my sarcasm made it through. I realize that there are multiple staff members who have posted on both sides of this fence and I will not quote them directly but it is only natural to have different opinions. Obviously I think there are people who will not like this idea, but in general, with everything stated in the last 150+ posts. It seems like this idea would cover quite a few of the complaints/listed suggestions.

It's possible, and it's one of the better ideas I've seen for a "gief currency pls" concept on bag loot.

dansari wrote:Yep - I think gear is the biggest factor for "player burnout" and the RVR system is the biggest factor for "how much fun I have." I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive.

The main things that have been mentioned to counteract this: change bag rolls to fragment system and increase the medallions in each, so something like the below. (For the below scenario, imagine there is new currency you can exchange for conq, subj, and genesis; call it a "Seal of the X" for this example).

• 1. Gold bag = 1 piece of conq OR a "Seal of the Conqueror" / 50 conq medallions (I'd prefer to go the Seal of the Conq route so that people don't feel so burnt out with rng. Basically you'd need to get 6 gold bags and you'd have your set. No duplicates. This gives you the option to choose a seal or the 50 medallions if you've already finished your set)
  2. Purple bag = 1 piece of subjugator OR a "Seal of the Subjugator" / 40 conq medallions / 1/2 of a Seal of the Conqueror (so that even if you have all the subjugator you want you can still work towards conqueror)
  3. Blue bag = 1 piece of genesis OR a "Seal of the Genesis" (to exchange for any genesis piece) / 20 conq medallions / 1/3 of a Seal of the Conqueror
  4. Green bag = 1 piece of the other jewelry set / 10 conq medallions / 1/5 of a Seal of the Conqueror
  5. White bag = 5 conq medallions / 1/5 of a Seal of the Conqueror

In this system, you could get 6 gold bags, 12 purple bags, 18 blue bags, or 30 green/white for full conq. So even if all you ever get is green and white you still feel the nice progression of working towards your set. I believe this would be a much better system for casual players. As it stands currently, say you have 30-40 people in a zone -- you're likely going to get 1-2 gold, maybe 1 purple, about 2-3 blues, and a handful of greens. That's roughly 25% of the actual zone population that contributed time and energy towards the capture of a zone that received rewards they are likely to be happy with. The other 75% probably feel like their time was wasted, and this gets progressively worse when you scale up the amount of people in the zone.

To counteract the "having fun in zone" piece, right now I think the simplest solution is to change the BO mechanics (decrease the timer so that it is never above 3min to claim), and change the way VPs are given so that the zone locks relatively quickly after the keep is taken unless the other realm is able to hold BOs for a certain period of time. All other suggestions take more time to test and implement, even though good suggestions (in my opinion) have been shared.

+1 to this as well, however with a better system like this, comes a NEED for a better bag reward system. Right now you take an empty zone and get several bags. Heck you can have a guy who shows up on the LOSING side, kills one guy with 200% AAO+ and ends up with #8 in contribution and rolls a high roll and walks away with a purple bag, doing next to nothing and getting a Subjugator piece. (This was me BTW and I realize I was very lucky but it still made me LOL).

I am so unaware of the DEV limitations I wont even begin to make suggestions... but I think the #1 thing that should be focused on is ENCOURAGING fights, rather than encouraging people to avoid them.

Your system is a better REWARDS system no doubt, but the entire way we get the rewards needs a rework. We need something that encourages people to play when population is low, but that ALSO encourages people to defend zones... to NOT avoid fights but to approach them head on.

Right now, the only reward is via locking a zone. This is a primary problem. People will naturally take the quickest and easiest path to locking a zone. Order sees Destru is online, hides out in a keep for 30 minutes till they get bored and log off, then proceed to lock the zone. (Just one example, I know both sides are guilty of this).

This is ALL why I have tried suggesting that maybe less emphasis put on the "locking"...

if defending a keep from being taken gave proper rewards. If stopping a zone from locking gave proper rewards... If taking empty zones/keeps gave significantly LESS rewards, etc. etc.... These are all things that need to be looked at. I dont have solutions for this, but merely adopting a better rewards system as you suggested is only HALF the problem. The other half, is what I have mentioned - rewards only really coming from zone locks (and death blows).

I guess this is why I was always in favor of making the entire thing a pure currency grind, because its easier to reward a ton of little things with smaller currency, than to do an "all or nothing" bag system...

If you asked me... I would remove all the "Seal of the..." items and just make it simple:

• 1. Gold bag = 50 conq medallions
  2. Purple bag = 40 conq medallions
  3. Blue bag = 20 conq medallions
  4. Green bag = 10 conq medallions
  5. White bag = 5 conq medallions

and then make EVERYTHING purchaseable via Conq Medallions...
THEN ALSO make a Emblem -> Medallion conversion somewhere around the 10:1 rate.

So then you go over to the vendor and maybe a Subjugator 2H costs like 500 Medallions or something... Well a player can get a few gold bags, combined with some blue and whites, combined with Medallions from kills, and maybe he trades in 500 SC Emblems for 50 ConQ medallions and BAM gets the item he wants.

With this system, you can also now give "bags" for defense - stopping a zone from locking (by respawning a Lord) Maybe giving lesser bags though...

This idea needs to be more fully fleshed out, but you get the idea. Maybe each BO lock (not take but LOCK) gives 1 Conq Medallion. You can start rewarding all the LITTLE things via currency which then allows someone to play, and feel GOOD about getting any bag.

When you have a system like this (currency grind) you dont feel BAD you got #1 in contribution but ended up with a blue bag. You feel good. You got 20 Conq medallions + whatever else you earned. Its seen as a "bonus" not the "End Goal".

wargrimnir wrote: "It is possible"

Thank you for the clarification. Obviously I believe this system would need to be tweaked based on how you guys up in the big house feel about it. I mean heck just something to go off for that idea of progression might do LOADS for the community morale.

It would make the particular bag you get matter less, but just that you have done enough to get one. Maybe this could make the better bags more rare and the green bags drop more often to more people? Or on a keep defense? Make it take quite a few of them, but we would get this illusion of getting lots of rewards, but in reality it would still take quite a while to get anything.

I look at it as the difference between running on a treadmill with a towel over the distance/time vs running down a street you take to work everyday. Even if you run longer on the street that you take to work, the treadmill will always and I mean always feel like it is never going to end because that is just how our brains work.

Again, thank you for the reply!

th3gatekeeper wrote:
Right now, the only reward is via locking a zone. This is a primary problem. People will naturally take the quickest and easiest path to locking a zone. Order sees Destru is online, hides out in a keep for 30 minutes till they get bored and log off, then proceed to lock the zone. (Just one example, I know both sides are guilty of this).

This is ALL why I have tried suggesting that maybe less emphasis put on the "locking"...

- While I will ignore the obvious bias that we are friends and generally agree with each other. I think this is a good point. How do you get a subjugator? a purple bag. Via a lock. NO OTHER WAY, ever.... Same with genesis. There HAS to be a lock.

But if this proposed type of system or something like it included the ability to use medallions or maybe use medallions to buy this other currency, killing would feel like it matters again for more than it currently does. Keep defenses could give maybe the green bags containing a small amount of this currency, or if you defend against like 200 people... everyone gets a blue? or maybe just a few extra of this currency.

Summary: I know the staff is semi leery on too many rewards as is very obvious. It is not a bad thing as much as it pains me to admit they are right usually more than they are wrong (that is still a compliment)
- If the rewards they DID give players or carrots if you will - all were towards one goal (possible new currency system) - people would be less worried about doing specific things ie supplies, or letting the enemy lock a zone since they did their part and should get a bag - and rather just WAR/FIGHT/GET OUT IN THE LAKES. If and I mean if all the things in the lake gave pieces of the big puzzle (getting conq/genesis/subju) and they can be small pieces - people would just get out there and play, rather than ninja kills, ninja supplies, sit in WC or not cap BO's and let the enemies kill the lords and what not just to get to the next zone since no one gets anything if it doesn't lock.

I hear you. I think tweaks are obviously needed, but we need to offer simple solutions to issues we see as players. Why do people not want to RVR? They think it's either 1) boring, 2) takes too long, 3) they don't feel their time was justified, 4) feel like they can never complete the gear they want, etc.

How do we combat that? 1&2) reduce "boring" downtime and increase "fun" time, 3) allow more casual players a path and progression/something to show for time spent in a zone and that their time was "worth it," 4) allow choice/remove the possibility of duplicates when you do get a bag & give a path for progression in smaller bags so more people feel like they "won"

This still rewards the people who contribute the most in a zone but doesn't completely bone the people that can't quite get into that next tier of contribution, and counters the "this is my fifth subjugator cloak why lord" frustration that some people run into.

well ist one Thing to say the truth but another to do it on a disrespektful , and not konstruktiv way
Ist pretty stupid if ppl cant see the things that are done here . Look for what ppl flamed a year ago and look now .
ist everytime a new Thing and everytime it has to be fixed as fast as possible ?
Did ONE rly just ONE of you know how the devs makes the game in 1-2 years ?
When the devs say NOW the game is rdy thats the FINAL Version , and there are still many bad things than start to talk about that but not now .
I rly cant belive that the devs DONT know about the Problems on the Server and i rly cant belive that they dont give a **** about that !

most guy here wanna drive a race on a half builded street -.- makes me latent aggro ;D

I'd say he was banned for the age old reply that girls have been wrecking ex boyfriends with since the beginning of time.

"It isn't what you said, it is how you said it"

This isn't to apply that the staff are behaving like a bad ex girlfriend. But the point is that how you say something matters. This server isn't even based in America where until 6 months ago, you literally couldn't say what you wanted to say because you had to worry about people's feelings - despite an amendment that 100% says otherwise. I digress.

Take Torq/Grim for example -

These guys spend a **** load of hours on this server. Regardless of if they are doing what we want, or what they want, they are spending a lot of time they could be spending with other things. It is only human nature to get a little upset when you spend so much time on something and then it is trampled on by the community. Sure you can say, "get some tougher skin." - but they are the ones in charge. So while I agree in a few cases, tougher skin could have been more helpful to both sides of the argument. It goes without question that more time could have gone in to the original post to state how they feel/stand subjectively - but without so much emotion or anything that could be interpreted as mal-intent.

At the end of the day it is their sandbox so they really can kick anyone out that they want and I think we all basically accept that just coming here. But I think everyone would agree that better staff/player relations would go a long long way here. Even if it was just having the staff come to some random teamspeaks and chat with the players PENDING they don't harp and harp and harp the guys/girls with "dev questions" and so forth.

But enough of this, lets keep on track and keep this thread going. I really do like having one place for all of this to be.

I truly believe that the people who comment on posts like this do want to see the server succeed, but I don't think that everyone comments the same way. Griefing and being hostile about your opinions is normally met with equal fire. It doesn't spawn any productive feedback. The devs do listen to ideas, as is easily seen in the changes they've made in the past year to different things. But when you start to drift away from respectful dialogue, you start to test someone's patience. That someone is a volunteer, developing an alpha server on a free game, who gets frustrated at the same things you do, and they hear about it constantly. Ultimately my and your opinion doesn't matter. The best we can do is submit our opinion with clear, simple evidence as to why we think it's a good change to make. There are plenty of solid balance proposals that do this.

With respect to opening up more than one zone, I really have my doubts. Again, T1 implemented that change ***because of people on this forum pleading that it be done*** and immediately players avoided the other realm and went to flip zones through the easiest methods. I remember specifically having 200%+ AAO in one zone and a zerg of my realmmates in the other. I think the open pairing argument is profound; it is not an easy black and white issue. But you have to counter-argue the path of least resistance players will take if more than one zone is open at a time. I haven't seen a solid argument against that yet, personally. And ultimately if the powers that be disagree with that, you kinda have to live with it. The communication we have with staff here is pretty nice from what I can tell of a few other games... just because we have that access doesn't mean we can sling mud.

^ the above isn't directed at anyone; it's just an observation as a player.

dansari wrote:

Spoiler:

th3gatekeeper wrote:+1 to this as well, however with a better system like this, comes a NEED for a better bag reward system. Right now you take an empty zone and get several bags. Heck you can have a guy who shows up on the LOSING side, kills one guy with 200% AAO+ and ends up with #8 in contribution and rolls a high roll and walks away with a purple bag, doing next to nothing and getting a Subjugator piece. (This was me BTW and I realize I was very lucky but it still made me LOL).

I am so unaware of the DEV limitations I wont even begin to make suggestions... but I think the #1 thing that should be focused on is ENCOURAGING fights, rather than encouraging people to avoid them.

Your system is a better REWARDS system no doubt, but the entire way we get the rewards needs a rework. We need something that encourages people to play when population is low, but that ALSO encourages people to defend zones... to NOT avoid fights but to approach them head on.

Right now, the only reward is via locking a zone. This is a primary problem. People will naturally take the quickest and easiest path to locking a zone. Order sees Destru is online, hides out in a keep for 30 minutes till they get bored and log off, then proceed to lock the zone. (Just one example, I know both sides are guilty of this).

This is ALL why I have tried suggesting that maybe less emphasis put on the "locking"...

if defending a keep from being taken gave proper rewards. If stopping a zone from locking gave proper rewards... If taking empty zones/keeps gave significantly LESS rewards, etc. etc.... These are all things that need to be looked at. I dont have solutions for this, but merely adopting a better rewards system as you suggested is only HALF the problem. The other half, is what I have mentioned - rewards only really coming from zone locks (and death blows).

I hear you. I think tweaks are obviously needed, but we need to offer simple solutions to issues we see as players. Why do people not want to RVR? They think it's either 1) boring, 2) takes too long, 3) they don't feel their time was justified, 4) feel like they can never complete the gear they want, etc.

How do we combat that? 1&2) reduce "boring" downtime and increase "fun" time, 3) allow more casual players a path and progression/something to show for time spent in a zone and that their time was "worth it," 4) allow choice/remove the possibility of duplicates when you do get a bag & give a path for progression in smaller bags so more people feel like they "won"

This still rewards the people who contribute the most in a zone but doesn't completely bone the people that can't quite get into that next tier of contribution, and counters the "this is my fifth subjugator cloak why lord" frustration that some people run into.

Maybe I am naive, but I think if we make RVR less about the "locks" and more about playing the game... it would mean more active RVR and draw more players in and ALL people who participate feel like they walk away with something (medallions) rather than feeling they got "screwed" by RNG because they got a top contr. spot but ended up with a duplicate item, or a white bag, or green bag that they will never ever use...

Right now everything is about the "goal" without focus on the journey TO the goal. What I mean is everything is ALLL about that "lock". That needs to change too.