DPS spec tank/healer Hypocrisy

[th3gatekeeper]

when this failed you are taking the damage - your tougness and -your armor and -your resistances.

Also, IDK if I underatnd you here, but damage you take from guard is not impacted by any of those things.... You merely "split" the damage your guarded target took, and have a chance to parry/block it (not dodge/disrupt it).

So things like toughness/armor/resists DONT impact the damage you take from guarding someone.

well whatever still you will not create more tanks by changing guard, or create better tanks.

the problem on the baseline will still be the same:

1. players who play tanks and are not good at it (guarding healers 150 units away, guarding damage dealers FA, not adjusting the playstyle to the guarded target and so on)
2. players who play there tank for lul DPS and don't give a duck about being a benefit to there group, they just dive backline and die there while nobody can follow.

Short addition:

And you don't create more FUN by changing it. you are taking it from me as an example. because I like being usefull and not an afk buff dispenser / follow your melee bot. The ability is proven usefull since days of dark age of camelot.

And how do you think your suggested change will not take a major overhaul on most dmg dealers and even healers and there abilities.

Actually I think you WILL make more tanks by changing guard. Right now, tanks have no selfish benefit to using guard. So many tanks I see who are swinging a 2H, stacking STR, etc. Dont even bother using guard.

Because it takes active management to use. Which would be cool if it were a different type of ability designed for key situations (like HTL is awesome example) however it already IS passive, and merely treats tanks almost like a pseudo healer where the tank is watching and managing "healthbars" rather than trying to "taunt" (not the ability but literally) the enemy on the frontlines. Guard, was/is great for a more "hardcore" game that demands focused teamwork and a full party. This is the TYPE of thing players wanted from games 10+ years ago (when DAOC made this and Warhammer copied it). You wont find these types of mechanics in games today, because players dont want this type of thing. They dont want to only be useful when in parties designed around min/maxing for only group play... It creates VERY painful solo experiences, which make up a large part of the gaming industry today. Why do you think WoW got rid of its 6 hour raids? Because people dont want that.... Sure it was GREAT back in 2006... but now in 2017... People dont view gaming the same way.

Anyways, point being, yes you will "make more tanks" because many of those 2H "DPS Tanks" will want the selfish benefits and since it doesnt cost them "time" or "active management" to use Guard, they will throw it on. Which THEN allows MDPS to "follow the tank" to get the benefits too.

I also disagree and think it will be MORE fun...

Lets take a step back for a second.

I play tanks...

I can only assume that by you not understanding how guard works, you likely DONT play tanks?

So... when I say "Guard is boring, I really dont like it as a mechanic. Its bad for PUG play, its boring, here is how it could work the same, and be more fun"

Then you come along and disagree with me.... Saying "And you don't create more FUN by changing it."

You see how its hard for me to take what you say seriously.... Since it seems you dont really use guard or understand it, and likely are not playing a tank....

You know what RVR feels like for tanks atm?
- An AFK buff bot with /follow...

What does it feel like in SCs?
- A buff bot, who is /following /assisting a MDPS (if you have one that doesnt suck).

So here is what is SUPER funny about all this (I find it hilarious).

When I say "Man Tanking is boring I basically just /follow a MDPS around with guard on him"

Everyone flips out "OMG, tanks do so much more then that, HTL, taunt, challenge, morales, punts, KDs, etc etc.

Then when I say "hey lets modify guard just a LITTLE so it doesnt require swapping.... all the sudden:

"I like being usefull and not an afk buff dispenser / follow your melee bot. "

So which is it? Are tanks MORE than Guard? If so, GREAT! lets put MORE emphasis on the OTHER things and LESS on guard to make it more enjoyable for everyone!

If it ISNT more than guard... then we have a problem.... because basically you ARE just a /follow buffer/debuffer.

I would rather see (frankly) guard removed and things like Challenge/Taunt/HTL stuff increased a TON. To me, that is "playing a tank" on the frontlines, "taunting" the enemy, being a huge ass target and trying to draw attention... Not someone who has to "stay within 30 feet of his MDPS" and its the TANKS JOB to stay within 30 feet of the MDPS... Why shouldnt the tank be up there pushing/holding the front lines, while the MDPS are forced to "stick with their tanks?" Well.... Ill tell you why.... Guard.


Side thought: What is funny also is this would actually make MDPS have to play smarter and not justfaceroll ROFL on their keyboards because right now they have guard and its the TANKS job to follow them... Change guard and now MDPS have to focus on "am I with my tank?"...

"Tanking" is already one of the LEAST "desired" roles in terms of what everyone wants to do. The design of Guard, just adds to this...

[ragafury]

Yes. Ok. For the sake that you feel you have accomplished something today I agree on all you wall of text and sign your petition. It's the best suggestion I have ever witnessed. We change it for the sake so that you enjoy the game. You implement it? When is patch day?

[th3gatekeeper]

Th#gatekeeper , you are my hero man, u need to tell me where you find that energy to keep on repeating your ideas over and over again ...

Redbull gives you wings my friend. Actually a big ol cup of coffee and a DEEP desire to see ROR become a great game.

Right now the PVP MMO scene is in a pitiful spot. There are NO good PVP "MMO" games out there with solid combat and fun gameplay. Neverwinter WAS one of those (for me) but died as it started to become Pay 2 Win and have tremendous gear gap between the "average" and BIS players. I could take on an entire team of enemies with my Guardian Fighter or Great Weapon Fighter and kill them all 5v1. So basically a White Lion on steroids in ROR

Anyways, ive been hoping around trying various games and there just isnt anything "good" out there. ROR could be a REALLY good game for those players looking for an awesome PVP experience. Its actually perfect for a casual player. Leveling doesnt take long. Focus is on PVP with little to no PVE. Gearing (for competitive gear) doesnt take long.... (Get Ruin, epic weapon quests, and BL and you are competitive)

This is why I say ROR has an identity crisis. Its almost like at its core the game is designed FOR "casual players" but then the combat mechanics are designed for hardcore players.

This is ANOTHER reason people leave... The hardcore players get bored when they dont have their "carrot" anymore (gear) and the casuals get bored because they cant even play solo or duo very well at all, and a good amount of content is largely "inaccessible" to them.

So this campaign I am on, is to MAYBE..... doubtfully, alleviate SOME of the casual pain by looking at the #1 culprit for the "combat mechanics" ruining it for casuals - Guard.

Then ALSO (in another thread) I have been trying to encourage DEVs to re-think RVR mechanics and rewards to give the "hardcore players" more to play with and do. So everyone wins.

But thats the issue the game has.

Due to combat mechanics and HEAVY reliance on other "roles" you are forced to play in teams, which turns off MANY casuals or semi-casuals (note: this doesnt mean BAD players, just that they have less time to play each week). Then on the flip side, the "hardcore" guys who play 6 hours a day, already have all the gear, maybe on multiple characters, and just are bored 24/7... ZergStomping in RVR and SCs, with no "competitive" play going on... Most zone locks are massive "zergs" of population on 1 side (that I see) and same in SCs... get 1 premade, just ROFLSTOMPS and people AFK in spawn.

neither of those are "positive" gameplay experiences.

So I really hope Torq (who is the lead DEV) takes a step back, looks at "who is the target audience of ROR" and looks to identify what ROR is supposed to be, and who it caters towards. It seems like a previous post saying "we arent going to make it any more casual/pug friendly" says just that... So maybe thats the goal... Which if thats the case, might as well seal the coffin for ROR because itll never have more players than it has now and the project will eventually die, BUT! Youll likely have another 1-2 years of PUG farming and ROFLstomping in RVR before that happens, so enjoy!

[Luth]

I recently leveled a SM through mid tier by only doing PvP. I stacked strength, i had a 2H all the time, played generally very offensive and still switched guard/challenged when needed. I don't care if there are healers in the scenario or not. With guard i can carry a DD into the backline, without guard i can not.
It seems for me that the major complain is that a) it takes too long to switch guard/is too complicated and b) the tank doesn't profit from guard.
It is a very powerful buff (a 50% incoming damage reduction is huge) that can be applied without a cast time or ap cost and it has no cooldown. It can be applied at any time if the tank is not unconscious; the tank has not to wait for his M3/M4.
Furthermore the ability to actively switching guard makes the tank archetype interesting; people who choose to play that archetype should do it primarily to protect others and only secondly to hit stuff.
The conclusion that tanks don't profit from guarding is imo wrong; they profit from it by supporting the team (even when it's "only" a pug one) in a very powerful way, and thus contributing to the scenario win equal to or maybe even more than healers. Unfortunately there is no scenario statistic yet for damage that was avoided on others and maybe many PuG tanks fail to see that profit without it (i don't know).
Most tanks who don't fulfill their primarily role probably just want to play a heavy armored guy, who looks cool and hits others with a big 2H (just guessing). But it's not the fault of the game and certainly not the fault of others who actually enjoy the tank class because they play it as it is intended.

tl;dr: My point is that you can't fix tanks who priorize tunnel vision damage mode over protecting others, for the same reasons that you can't fix DDs who beat on the shields of full defensive tanks for no reason. Or healers who don't cleanse. Some personal skill has to be acquired on the way to level 40.

[th3gatekeeper]

I recently leveled a SM through mid tier by only doing PvP. I stacked strength, i had a 2H all the time, played generally very offensive and still switched guard/challenged when needed. I don't care if there are healers in the scenario or not. With guard i can carry a DD into the backline, without guard i can not.
It seems for me that the major complain is that a) it takes too long to switch guard/is too complicated and b) the tank doesn't profit from guard.
It is a very powerful buff (a 50% incoming damage reduction is huge) that can be applied without a cast time or ap cost and it has no cooldown. It can be applied at any time if the tank is not unconscious; the tank has not to wait for his M3/M4.
Furthermore the ability to actively switching guard makes the tank archetype interesting; people who choose to play that archetype should do it primarily to protect others and only secondly to hit stuff.
The conclusion that tanks don't profit from guarding is imo wrong; they profit from it by supporting the team (even when it's "only" a pug one) in a very powerful way, and thus contributing to the scenario win equal to or maybe even more than healers. Unfortunately there is no scenario statistic yet for damage that was avoided on others and maybe many PuG tanks fail to see that profit without it (i don't know).
Most tanks who don't fulfill their primarily role probably just want to play a heavy armored guy, who looks cool and hits others with a big 2H (just guessing). But it's not the fault of the game and certainly not the fault of others who actually enjoy the tank class because they play it as it is intended.

tl;dr: My point is that you can't fix tanks who priorize tunnel vision damage mode over protecting others, for the same reasons that you can't fix DDs who beat on the shields of full defensive tanks for no reason. Or healers who don't cleanse. Some personal skill has to be acquired on the way to level 40.

Man, I want to live in your world. The utopia presented sounds fantastic! Going full SNB, trying to guard a MDPS - you might be able to get TO the backline, but without a healer, game over.

All I will say is look at a game like Overwatch. Yes, they are VERY different games, but I think it really highlights the FUN aspect of things.

You see tanks in other games like this. A GREAT example is Reinhardt (my personal favorite). He holds up a massive shield that literally blocks all damage for himself (selfish benefit) and allies. AND! Its an "active" and FUN thing to use!

So the benefit here is, there is selfish benefit AND its reliant on the DPS classes (and healers) to stand next to/behind the tank to get the benefits. Its not the tanks job to "stay 30 feet next to" some target and watch everyones HP and try and swap guard )... This would have been met in a game like Overwatch with a TON of backlash... Because its not fun. Is it powerful? OFCOURSE! If it werent, I wouldnt have posted about it. Its arguably the single most powerful "tool" in the game... And its put onto a move that is very boring.


To be frank, id rather see guard removed and things like Challenge/Taunt/HTL made stronger. Also, things LIKE "Crippling Strikes" become more of a tank thing across the board rather than guard. These all require much more active use/management and are much more FUN to use than casting an ability and have the TANKS job to be "stand 30 feet next to this person at all times". Shoot, you want to make this a FUN/Active ability? Copy "Vigilance" from the Knights, and make that the new Guard for your party. 50% damage reduction buff, lasts 10 seconds. There are SO many other cooler, more active, FUN things you could do to balance tanks around, that dont involve "Guard"....

Im a little surprised that very smart people cant see this. Do people not play other games? Why do you think nearly every new game (MMO or not) has gotten rid of this type of system. Look across the board at popular MMOs:
- BDO - doesnt have a "tank" each class "keeping themselves alive using their own classes defense or escape skills".
- WoW - Has tanks, but mostly involves CC effect for PVP, self bubbles/healing all things we kinda see in ROR, except no "Guard" function.
- ESO - Has "tanks" sorta... Nothing like Guard.

Anyways the list goes on. Not only have MMOs not replicated this principle, but non MMOs (like Overwatch) also have gone a different path.

Obviously removing guard is a bad idea. Squishies are too squishy. Need protection....

At this point. Im not just repeating myself 1000x, but 2000x, and anything I have to say has been said 10x over in this thread by me and other people too.

Ill end with this.


This ISNT about if guard works or doesnt work. This is about the combat mechanics of this game being:
- too harsh on solo players. (which causes lower populations due to people leaving)
- unfun to use unless in a party (reliant on who is online to play with, not your "skill")
- just a clunky mechanic in general offering no selfish benefits.

If ROR wants to GROW, and wants to have larger populations - which starts to solve A LOT of the issues we have in ROR atm (such as only having 1 zone for RVR, low NA pop, etc)... Then we should want to create a healthy community for MANY types of players.

Within all of this, I think there is PLENTY of room to look at making some minor tweaks to Guard, so that it DOESNT impact "high level premade group play" but it does create a positive impact on solo/PUG groups - which makes for more competitive games for everyone... If people are not interested in more people, more fun, more competition.... Well, I guess Ive got nothing left to say.

[Nefarian78]

It seems for me that the major complain is that a) it takes too long to switch guard/is too complicated and b) the tank doesn't profit from guard.

I really can't see how Guard is a difficult mechanic, to be honest. it's just plain boring and passive... i can't see how it's hard to switch guard to the target that is being focused, especially in a game like RoR where it takes a lot more time than other MMOs to switch kill-targets. the only difficulty in guarding is in the positioning where even if you get punted you can get closer to your guard-target quickly. Also, let's not forget about all the addons that make guarding a lot easier like Enemy, that places a huge mark on your guard-target so it's impossible to lose sight of him even after you get punted far away.

[Aurandilaz]

honestly, if you need a guard to be able to get kills as a dps, maybe you just aren't dpsing enough...
The Guard ability is not overpowered, nor is it very game-defining. It's a nice way to make weaker classes last longer in tough battles.

Solo playing does not suffer from guard or lack of guard, it suffers from imbalances that exist in 1v1 fights which will most likely never be addressed as the focus of balance seems to be around "competitive 6man gameplay". (certain classes that overperform in small scale and others that vastly underperform...)
Unless in a party? A lot of game mechanics involve party-wide buffs and skills. Gee, a multiplayer game that favours multiple players playing together? How disgusting.
There is a difference between direct selfish benefit and indirect selfish benefit. By guarding a dps, the party will win. By refusing to guard a dps, the party has lesser chance of winning.

[ragafury]

Im a little surprised that very smart people cant see this. Do people not play other games? Why do you think nearly every new game (MMO or not) has gotten rid of this type of system. Look across the board at popular MMOs:
- BDO - doesnt have a "tank" each class "keeping themselves alive using their own classes defense or escape skills".
- WoW - Has tanks, but mostly involves CC effect for PVP, self bubbles/healing all things we kinda see in ROR, except no "Guard" function.
- ESO - Has "tanks" sorta... Nothing like Guard.

An upcoming game

Spoiler:

Camelot Unchained, from CityStateGames

will feature another System which is around proactively blocking projectiles, buffs / debuffs for your group mates to reduce incoming the damage. The Class there will not be called Tank, but heavy fighter.
Some heavy fighters will be able to guard targets or have a very similiar mechanic. Since I don't want to advertise anything I put it in a spoiler.

Spoiler:

proof Source: Youtube: Class Trio Reveal: Heavy Fighter 24:52

So the System is still not dead as you described it.

Some classes will have something very similar to guard or they will just have guard.

Oh and for my enjoyment I'll edit my post right here. One of the most popular mmorpgs of all time

Spoiler:

DaoC, played since 2001/2002 on a montly abbonement system

is running guard, same goes for

Spoiler:

Uthgard

You compare Reinhards ability with raising the shield to guard... the right comparision would be "Hold the Line!".
It functions in the exact same way.


I bet everybody who plays this game here has played different games, and every game has different strategies to make things work and to make "tanking" or "frontlining" or "heavy fighting" and so on possible.

[lilsabin]

Th#gatekeeper , you are my hero man, u need to tell me where you find that energy to keep on repeating your ideas over and over again ...

Redbull gives you wings my friend. Actually a big ol cup of coffee and a DEEP desire to see ROR become a great game.

Right now the PVP MMO scene is in a pitiful spot. There are NO good PVP "MMO" games out there with solid combat and fun gameplay. Neverwinter WAS one of those (for me) but died as it started to become Pay 2 Win and have tremendous gear gap between the "average" and BIS players. I could take on an entire team of enemies with my Guardian Fighter or Great Weapon Fighter and kill them all 5v1. So basically a White Lion on steroids in ROR

Anyways, ive been hoping around trying various games and there just isnt anything "good" out there. ROR could be a REALLY good game for those players looking for an awesome PVP experience. Its actually perfect for a casual player. Leveling doesnt take long. Focus is on PVP with little to no PVE. Gearing (for competitive gear) doesnt take long.... (Get Ruin, epic weapon quests, and BL and you are competitive)

This is why I say ROR has an identity crisis. Its almost like at its core the game is designed FOR "casual players" but then the combat mechanics are designed for hardcore players.

This is ANOTHER reason people leave... The hardcore players get bored when they dont have their "carrot" anymore (gear) and the casuals get bored because they cant even play solo or duo very well at all, and a good amount of content is largely "inaccessible" to them.

So this campaign I am on, is to MAYBE..... doubtfully, alleviate SOME of the casual pain by looking at the #1 culprit for the "combat mechanics" ruining it for casuals - Guard.

Then ALSO (in another thread) I have been trying to encourage DEVs to re-think RVR mechanics and rewards to give the "hardcore players" more to play with and do. So everyone wins.

But thats the issue the game has.

Due to combat mechanics and HEAVY reliance on other "roles" you are forced to play in teams, which turns off MANY casuals or semi-casuals (note: this doesnt mean BAD players, just that they have less time to play each week). Then on the flip side, the "hardcore" guys who play 6 hours a day, already have all the gear, maybe on multiple characters, and just are bored 24/7... ZergStomping in RVR and SCs, with no "competitive" play going on... Most zone locks are massive "zergs" of population on 1 side (that I see) and same in SCs... get 1 premade, just ROFLSTOMPS and people AFK in spawn.

neither of those are "positive" gameplay experiences.

So I really hope Torq (who is the lead DEV) takes a step back, looks at "who is the target audience of ROR" and looks to identify what ROR is supposed to be, and who it caters towards. It seems like a previous post saying "we arent going to make it any more casual/pug friendly" says just that... So maybe thats the goal... Which if thats the case, might as well seal the coffin for ROR because itll never have more players than it has now and the project will eventually die, BUT! Youll likely have another 1-2 years of PUG farming and ROFLstomping in RVR before that happens, so enjoy!

i understood you since the begining ... but , look at all those other people who doesnt get the point here ( i am sorry , but i hate repeating myself , expecially for something thats clearly explained in like 3-4 pages) thinking it s a L2P issue , i just cant . Lol , and i admire your courrage to keep trying to explain to them that the problem is PEOPLE DONT HAVE TIME TO """"LOOK"""" FOR OTHER PLAYER TO START HAVING FUN , SINCE NO CLASS CAN DO **** IN THIS GAME BY THEMSELVES . IT'S LIKE HAVING A CAR , BUT BEFORE LEAVING HOME EACH MORNING YOU NEED YOUR NEIGHBOURS TO INSTALL YOUR TIRE , AND IF YOUR NEIGHBOOR IS NOT HERE , YOU ARE JUST **** UP .
anyway , good luck man

[lilsabin]

Im a little surprised that very smart people cant see this. Do people not play other games? Why do you think nearly every new game (MMO or not) has gotten rid of this type of system.

been asking myself the same thing for 2 years now