Fixing boring unbalanced scenarios

[spikespiegel84]

Tank is life.

No rewards, no damage, no shine. We are the bass players of RoR, the n.8 in football (I will never call it soccer), still our shield and blood defend you wankers from certain and gruesome death. We need no thanks. We are the tanks.

[Bozzax]

IMO the current match making system is actually quite good. I've never played a higher amount of balanced SCs then now (LIVE included). That also includes the PUG SCs I've played since they changed the code.

Problem:
Unbalanced scenarios occur to often with "random" teams of varying player experience.

"random" = best effort depending what is being available in server queue

Solution:
To minimise unbalanced SCs you simply queue together with a balanced team of known experience. If you are lucky your team is fielded vs another balanced team and every once in a while the skill level of the two sides are "similar".

Observation:
We had to pick up a PUG tank the other day. He claimed 300+ days LIVE and still didn't guard or assist. There simply is no server side solution to having guys like that randomly assigned to your team. Needless to say he brought our whole team down (singlehandedly).

Secondly the current mix of SCs have both "head to head fight" and the possibility to play "hide and seek". You already can choose what you want to queue for.

[Idrinth]

All fair points I think. I personally feel the current "gear gap" is small. Its not that hard to get stalkers + a good weapon (epic quest?) and then buy some crappy +16 talis to put in gear. You are more or less 80% of the same if not more than the BIS guys running +22s etc...

Ok, taking the 80%, that means a group is not 600% but 540% of the power, as in missing more than half a player - and that is before playing WITH each other increases the groups power
A 5vs6 with similar bad teams is not going to be won under normal circumstances

So I think gear gap is a small problem that doesnt need to be fixed. The REAL "gap" comes from communication more than anything.

The combination is the issue, communication multiplies effective power and results in a bigger gap due to the 25% you got from gear already. The issue is, that you can fix the 25% gap, but you can't force people to build groups, so starting at the point, where we can adjust the game might be more useful.

I think having a "guarded Damage" column to show really how much damage a tank DID guard off someone would be a worthy addition. It would tell tanks they are not doing their job, it would help full defensive tanks SEE their value and I think actually promote more people to play tanks rather than DPS tanks since they could SEE their impact of taking "65k" guard damage in 1 game versus another tank who only took say 30k....

I wouldn't like to see guard damage only, try damage avoided and reduced(including on self) to capture more of the tools tanks and healers have there - bubbles don't show up anywhere atm either

[Scrilian]

But back to the topic, we all seem to agree, that the main reason of spawncamps is people being overrun too fast. I see a few options there:
- increase the time to die by a bit(Wounds x10 to Wounds x11 for health maybe?)
- decrease the gear differences by a lot
- give individual incentives to play classes that are lacking(small gold, renown, xp boost?)

Nerf burst classes, destroy progression and give unneeded meh buffs instead of addressing class issues? When did anyone agree on that?

[Idrinth]

But back to the topic, we all seem to agree, that the main reason of spawncamps is people being overrun too fast. I see a few options there:
- increase the time to die by a bit(Wounds x10 to Wounds x11 for health maybe?)
- decrease the gear differences by a lot
- give individual incentives to play classes that are lacking(small gold, renown, xp boost?)

Nerf burst classes, destroy progression and give unneeded meh buffs instead of addressing class issues? When did anyone agree on that?

- Burst classes won't suffer much from that, those few points of extra health will not make them useless, might just take 1 gcd more to kill a target
- Lower gear differences will leave both progression options in, meaning you will still get power by gear and renown rank
- that buff is merely meant to help balance out scenarios a bit, a bonus so to speak. Not everything needs to be insanly strong to work, sometimes a small bit is already enough

[Bozzax]

It is not the classes that are unbalanced it is the players that are of vastly varying quality.

(Even though classes may need a tweak or two.)

The only way you can ensure more balance SCs is by queuing together with other known players.

By doing this you you get
1. a predictable team composition
2. team members that has a predictable level of experience/skill/gear/rank/rr (predictable quality)

By queueing solo you get
1. a best effort team composition
2. random team members of vastly different skill/experience/gear/rank/rr (random quality)

Bolster helps as bit as it reduce the influence of gear/rank/rr but skill and experience dwarf those when it comes to being efficient on your class.

You either accept the downsides of joining best effort teams with random quality or control it yourself by using the group queue mechanic.

Ofc devs may improve the matching system even further but what we have now IMO is infinitely better then live ever was.

[Scrilian]

Idrinth, nothing of this is necessary, will just screw the game to became more bland and boring.
I already told you once my opinion on this - gear should matter, because its the quintessential time+effort the player puts in the game and 6% won't cut it, if I remember the numbers correctly.
"High gear gap is bad" - is a myth and stop putting it in every post. If its all for the poor new players - they can't get inspired by getting stomped by those who commit themselves to the game and work for their group/gear/comp - maybe its not the game for them. Only RR progression is not enough.
Just look at the plain old WoW, nowadays there is barely any real pvp gear progression at all aside from ocasional seasonal T2 weapons and HP pools are so high compared to damage, that literally any noob can open his spellbook, scroll though it, find Shieldwall/Bubble and put it on the cast bar while you burst him down - and still have a good chance of surviving.
Oh the "fun" of it

[peterthepan3]

But back to the topic, we all seem to agree, that the main reason of spawncamps is people being overrun too fast. I see a few options there:
- increase the time to die by a bit(Wounds x10 to Wounds x11 for health maybe?)
- decrease the gear differences by a lot
- give individual incentives to play classes that are lacking(small gold, renown, xp boost?)

Nerf burst classes, destroy progression and give unneeded meh buffs instead of addressing class issues? When did anyone agree on that?

- Burst classes won't suffer much from that, those few points of extra health will not make them useless, might just take 1 gcd more to kill a target
- Lower gear differences will leave both progression options in, meaning you will still get power by gear and renown rank
- that buff is merely meant to help balance out scenarios a bit, a bonus so to speak. Not everything needs to be insanly strong to work, sometimes a small bit is already enough

If it takes 1 GCD extra, then why would anyone bother to implement such a change?

you keep proposing the most bollony ideas I've ever heard to address problems that stem from people's inability to adapt to a situation.

[Idrinth]

Idrinth, nothing of this is necessary, will just screw the game to became more bland and boring.

Why would a game with less predetermined wins/losses be less fun?

I already told you once my opinion on this - gear should matter, because its the quintessential time+effort the player puts in the game and 6% won't cut it, if I remember the numbers correctly.

It's still 6% from gear from that example - and judging from the amount of people who bought the tiny pets for even tinier buffs it would be sufficient.

"High gear gap is bad" - is a myth and stop putting it in every post.

Ok, so please explain why high gear gaps are good or benefitial. the reaction to the R100 patch would be a pretty good start

If its all for the poor new players - they can't get inspired by getting stomped by those who commit themselves to the game and work for their group/gear/comp - maybe its not the game for them. Only RR progression is not enough.

What player is inspired by beeing beaten by gear? Inspiring people needs skill, not a tool that is just way better. How many persons left because they didn't feel their contribution was sufficient and how many stayed?
I've seen hundreds of people give up and one or two stay because of that

Just look at the plain old WoW, nowadays there is barely any real pvp gear progression at all aside from ocasional seasonal T2 weapons and HP pools are so high compared to damage, that literally any noob can open his spellbook, scroll though it, find Shieldwall/Bubble and put it on the cast bar while you burst him down - and still have a good chance of surviving.

different game, but sounds broken if an assist train can be stopped by a mere two spells. Was not and has never been the case here - takes way more effort to prevent someone being focussed from death if the opponents are geared similary. It mostly comes down to gear difference here as well, since most of that saving are raw numbers if all involved know the basics

If it takes 1 GCD extra, then why would anyone bother to implement such a change?

Because that gcd opens the window to your team reacting a bit wider, giving people the chance of experiencing being saved. 1GCD without support can make a death feel way, way differently to the one being killed if the team manages to react.

you keep proposing the most bollony ideas I've ever heard to address problems that stem from people's inability to adapt to a situation.

if they are so bad, go ahead and propose something that also won't break the game for premades AND give pugs the time to learn - if you don't have a better idea, you're invited to improve my proposal with logically sound arguments.

[Scrilian]

And you've done it again, a gigantic unquotable post. RR100 gear is confirmed not to be coming back, predetermination is good for progression and keeps you going forward. Its also good that hundreds given up, meaning that the game progression works wonders and they've used the best option to leave and play GW2 or FPS, where the is no gear factor.