Return of Reckoning

Hatered wrote: What exactly you have added to this thread?

To be fair - I've not added anything to the thread. My intention is to ensure that proper game changes are policed and legislated by only those with the proper expertise and knowledge to do so - and by that I am of course talking about my 6v6 brothers.

I appreciate your question...but if you are challenging my authority to police these types of threads to ensure proper credentials are administered before making changes... then I've only got one thing to say to you:

6v6 brah?

It's funny because Warhammer actually has the LEAST amount of CC of any game I've played.

Get disabled? You are immune for the duration of the ability x 10 in seconds. 5 second knockdown? No one can silence, knockdown, or mez you for 50 seconds.

Get rooted or knocked back? You can't be affected by either for 30 seconds.

The only type of cc that can stick in this game is a slowing effect.

Torquemadra wrote:
This game didnt come with clones, this game didnt come with 1 class 100% balanced to each other (but they were pretty close), it was supposed to be balanced as a faction and the game is(was) all the better for it. Carrie and her cronies pandered to the whiners, people who wanted free stuff and the lowest common denominators which is what got us an oversimplified WAR of nothing but flips, free and easy gear, "worn" sov for gold and then they moved to make all CC the same at the end without factoring in the classes as a whole, it sucked.

So I'm sure that every other tank in the game having access to a 2H knockdown is perfect "faction balance"?

What about people who want to play a 2H Blackguard but it doesn't have the strength of basically any other 2H tank build in the game?

Regarding CC, you would rather have a WE knock you down, then silence you afterwards? Is that fun for anyone? Is being CC'd for 10-15 seconds straight fun? I mean in DAoC you could be mesmerized for a minute straight, is that good gameplay?

Is a population massively outnumbered never seeing the enemy city and logging into to their city under siege every day with no possible rewards for them good game mechanics?

Is the idea of people having gear that makes them a lot closer to top-end players and keeping the game more about skill and not gear a bad thing? Should people with a clear gear advantage have a near 100% chance to win in most situations a good thing?

Should a 2H Blackguard remain at the bottom of the tier list because other classes in their faction are strong in comparison? Is that fair to current and future Blackguards?

Tell me more about your ideal vision of Warhammer, let's compare notes.

Penril wrote:
Because it might actually be OP otherwise, since BGs will be able to retain all the tactics that have been mentioned (FwF, SK, HD, UF).

Speccing a skill AND a tactic that changes that skill is not something new. Black Orcs already have this with Ya Missed Me and Mor'Hardcore (and they would need more points to get these skills than BGs would need to get BoR + MR).

I've looked at the specs, and the BG is already required to make some pretty hefty choices if this change goes through.

See Exhibit A:

Exhibit A is if BoR is a knockdown with the addition of the tactic Monstrous Ruin. To have all the goodies, you would need every single point up to RR70 to make it work, and would be forced to drop one of the key tactics.

Exhibit B:

Exhibit B includes Elite Training, but this build is going under the assumption that maybe one day Wave of Scorn would be swapped with Elite Training in the trees, giving 2H Blackguards the option of an aoe slow. With this, there are 2 things you would commonly get that you cannot get at RR70: Choking Fury and Enraged Beating. This may not be the optimal build but the Blackguard would be forced to drop 2 of the standard things in the build.

My point is, if we jump the gun and force Blackguards to use a spec'd tactic and a spec'd ability for this knockdown, we have no room for any other ideas we have. If we instead leave the Monstrous Ruin tactic, which is a pretty good tactic in certain circumstances by the way, we could look at making other changes in the future.

Mez wrote:stuff

I mean if you want to troll the thread because you died on your Runepriest, fine. I don't even play a Blackguard but I care about playing a good, well-balanced game.

I really don't feel that you dying on your Runepriest is a good enough reason to keep an entire option of play (2H Blackguard) in a poor state.

Uchoo wrote:
I've looked at the specs, and the BG is already required to make some pretty hefty choices if this change goes through.

See Exhibit A:

Exhibit A is if BoR is a knockdown with the addition of the tactic Monstrous Ruin. To have all the goodies, you would need every single point up to RR70 to make it work, and would be forced to drop one of the key tactics.

Exhibit B:

Exhibit B includes Elite Training, but this build is going under the assumption that maybe one day Wave of Scorn would be swapped with Elite Training in the trees, giving 2H Blackguards the option of an aoe slow. With this, there are 2 things you would commonly get that you cannot get at RR70: Choking Fury and Enraged Beating. This may not be the optimal build but the Blackguard would be forced to drop 2 of the standard things in the build.

My point is, if we jump the gun and force Blackguards to use a spec'd tactic and a spec'd ability for this knockdown, we have no room for any other ideas we have. If we instead leave the Monstrous Ruin tactic, which is a pretty good tactic in certain circumstances by the way, we could look at making other changes in the future.

Exactly. Just like BOs can't have all the goodies either (can't have THC, GS, DYG, No Choppin me and AoE snare at the same time). Just like WEs have to choose between Flanking, Frenzied Mayhem, Taste of Blood, Masterful Treachery, even Brute Force to fill 3 tactic slots (the fourth is obviously Increased Pain). Just like they don't have a Inc heal debuff if using OYK spec.

BGs would give up ONE of their class defining tactics in order to get their precious 2H KD. Sounds really fair to me.

Did you look at exhibit B? Your other 2 examples are across 3 tree lines by the way..

Also, does anyone use No Choppin' Me? I've never played with it but it seems like giving your entire group a bit of Weapon Skill isn't all that great for 12 points in a tree.

Penril wrote:

Exactly. Just like BOs can't have all the goodies either (can't have THC, GS, DYG, No Choppin me and AoE snare at the same time). Just like WEs have to choose between Flanking, Frenzied Mayhem, Taste of Blood, Masterful Treachery, even Brute Force to fill 3 tactic slots (the fourth is obviously Increased Pain). Just like they don't have a Inc heal debuff if using OYK spec.

BGs would give up ONE of their class defining tactics in order to get their precious 2H KD. Sounds really fair to me.

I love how the BG has to make concessions to a tactic to get make a bad spec to a mediocre one, and giving up what is making them good. Give up 2 mastery points, a tactic slot, a 5 second KD, survivability for a bit of more white damage and a 3 sec KD...WOT?! We are trying to make 2handers viable not reinforce the simple fact that doing it is a bad idea. Incentives don't take the form of handicaps just saying.

Giving up a 5s KD, 1 mastery point and surviability is enough of a trade considering it will be the hardest KD to line up (requiring a parry as well as hatred) Balancing miniature games is alot more difficult than this, and you lot make this seem like this is Rocket Surgery.

Uchoo wrote:Did you look at exhibit B? Your other 2 examples are across 3 tree lines by the way..

Also, does anyone use No Choppin' Me? I've never played with it but it seems like giving your entire group a bit of Weapon Skill isn't all that great for 12 points in a tree.

It was awesome for melee trains. Then again it was bugged on live (gave double the value to your main target).

Torquemadra wrote: There isnt a weak class in this game and the only ones I didnt have in full end game spec was zealot/RP and a swordmaster, there are still some abilities that could do with tweaking but a blackguard, which has access to the longest KD in the game in S&B spec, getting a 2 hander KD is farcical. Lifes just full of choices, you can never get everything you want.

So you're saying that because SnB BG has a fantastic knockdown; it is ridiculous for a 2h BG to get a KD at all? If so, that is some horribly flawed logic. Could you imagine if you applied that nonsense to reality? "I made an exceptional Product A. Therefore, Product B has to be considerably worse to make up for how awesome Product A was." That's completely foolish.

In addition, you do understand that the 2h KD proposed would "Require Greatweapon" and would be unusable with SnB? This change would have no effect on the superior SnB setup. It would only improve the inferior 2h playstyle.