Return of Reckoning

It really dont make sense to have pull on cooldown if it's interrupted? Should we apply this logic to Resurrect as well? Or anything else with cast time/cooldown. The counterplay to the pulls in RoR is non existant yes but the answer to that is bring the Old tools to counter it back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISvQ0-JVdrA This is RoR video, 5min39sec you can see SW countering Mara pull, i actually dont know if/how this works or worked, i assume it doesnt work like that anymore? But that is counter to Mara pull.

Same for old WL pounce, you can just pounce in air to avoid the pull. Remove restrictions to use these skills in air, let people use any skill in air/land/even Res should Work In keeps/forts without Los like squared did or what was the addon called that let you do that in Live? Everyone used it, and they let it be like that since it was only way in Keeps to defend.

Heroic Defender buff in keeps, why dont we have that btw? Gave defenders super buffs in certain situations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMRL_X-sefc This is live and you can see clips during first minute how he uses Declare Anathema to switch which way he is punting himself or someone Kb's him and he using Declare Anathema right way to get back to whoever punted him.

That is also a way to avoid pull, but " cant use while airborne " I mean how can you not see that removing all these things is the issue, not the power of these things.

Avoiding Pull death with 9s 65ft Stagger with kotbs/chosen in your party? Gone is that as well, and nowadays 24 cap instead 9 some randoms willbreak the staggers probably but reduce it back to 9 ae cap + 9s stagger. There is no reason why people who play with voicechat wouldnt want this back, since it only punishes you if you do dmg to those staggered and not everything being ae spam fest like now, you could use it to kill some of the WB with much smaller force(and single target dmg) or escape pull.

Then there was all the items that were off the GCD like keg backbag, or like subjugator cloak, but you didnt need to wear that item to have that dot, or cleanse or immunity crits for 10s, ignoring all armour pene for 10s and these had LONG cooldowns like 45min but all off the gcd and can be used if not wearing the item, most of these items were not even wearable.

Then there was also Renown Abilities making you immune to any CC and Cleansing everything off you, also removed. Odjira btw was a thing that helps survive pulls. It's kind of sad that i have so much more examples of this but whatever. "TOO POWERFUL I DONT WANT TO DIE" goddamn Killboard people(this is also rigged against solo's espesially : D)

All of our fun is based on all of us dying. EDIT; Ah i found Marauder dueling video that made me nostalgic i have to link this here! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUYjQ_HQ2xA Karak-Azgal - in beginning he shows every piece of gear he has and compare them to now=) Also, not one person is specced defensively in Duels : D Full offence because all of us wanted to enjoy the game, not hide behind passive bs:/

Fey wrote: Thu Jul 31, 2025 12:23 am Imo the pull isn't the issue. It is the counterplay.

It sucks being pulled, but that's okay. It's a mechanic that has existed and been balanced around for the entire history of the game. That's of course not a justification in and of itself. But It's fine to have pull as a very powerful cc ability, because this game in general does not have the very punishing cc mechanics of other games. Swtor had a friendly target pull, but offensive target pull is one of the things that make this game unique.

I'm thinking specifically of WoW stun lock, but also things like Blackout from GW1. You disable all abilities on your target, as well as yourself. Duration as well in this game as far as CC goes is very low. Compare Mez and root durations of over a minute in DaoC, and you will understand how CC takes a backseat in this game.

However those games don't have knockback or pull. (can't remember Swtor that well) So in my mind the existence of pull and punt in particular are a unique facet of this particular game. It also allows for a very fun tank experience as they are one of the primary cc'rs.

Pull itself is very strong, yet it can be countered. Pet KD (sometimes) and Marauder taunt. The issue is that the counterplay itself is very weak. Pull does not go on CD when interrupted. That is poor game design, and it does not reward the quick-fingered tank who taunts or knocks down a pull. Put a CD on cast for, Terrible Embrace, and Fetch! Then if a tank counters the pull you will properly reward the tank, and make the mara/WL adjust their gameplay instead of just recasting the ability.

Countering a pull as a tank, and then having the pull just get recast is among the most frustrating aspects of playing a tank. Pulls should have always had a cooldown on cast, and not on the completion of the cast. IMO is is really basic game design, and a glaring oversight.

The pet still pulls while in KD, I have seen this on multiple occasion now.

Maybe this should be fixed first.

I think the main issue is the feeling of being mocked by this class mechanic.

Geting pulled "all the time", or that the WL can escape "all the time", and therefore out of every situation. The biggest difference to mara is, that you can kill the mara. Thats why he doesnt feel overpowered, even if he is strong on ST build. But you still can kill it when he overextends, or finish him when he gets low. For WL, you can only kill him if he doesnt escape by his own fail. Otherwise there is always a way to escape out of every "close to death" situation. Just pounce away form the melee who is killing you, or run away out of range... just escape every situation when it gets close. EZ. No matter where, the common picture in the lakes or SC are white lions who are running away. 90% succesfully. What you gonna do about it? Nothing! There is just no way, because of pounce, speed and immunity while running. And after a while you feel mocked by that behavior.

In the mayority fights, where you brought WL to 10% life, he just pounces out. Gets healed quickly, immediately jumps back in fight, shits out insane damage until it gets close again, and jump out. And repeat. Thats the play style all day long. On the other side you brought all your skills and abilities into this WL target, wich would defenetly kill him, but all he has to do is to press the escape button when hes close to death. Without that ability, wich is like "always ready", you would have killed him many times in this over extending playstyle. And thats the point of frustration. Whenever any other mdps overextends like this in afight, he will get punished for sure. But not the WL. He can push it to the limit, escapes, and do it again. And after the escape, he can pull you on top So you almost killed him 3 times, he escaped every time easyliy, and then, on top, you get pulled and die. And thats the point of frustration, where you feel mocked. And since there is not only 1 lion, cause 50% of dps on order side plays WL, you got mocked like this all day long, in the lakes, in every SC.

My suggestion is, increase the cooldowns of these abilites to a maximum. Let them have the ability to jump inside or outside the fight, if thats their mechanic, ok. But dont make it available every 10seconds = like all the time, cause that way you can mock every other melee until they feel like a fool. Give it a CD of at least 60seconds, like juggernaut f.e. (Imagine you would have juggernaut ready all 10 seconds, like pounce!) If he jumps into the fight, he can not jump out instantly if he failed. So over extending gets punished. If he jumps out, ok, good for him. But he cant do that in and out thing again and again and again.

Same for pulls, for both sides. Make it possible every 60 seconds. Then you know at least there is some downtime. IMO these abilities are far over powered with a short cooldown. And a drastical increase of CD would be a solution to defuse the OPness for this case.

Still i have to say, that i think its a bad design, to have all of these abilities united in one class. And i would rather see a big nerf in a way of taking some of the abilites away from this one WL class completely, and give it to another instead. Since the devs never respected class mechanics from life server and made drastical changes in mechanics, i dont see any reason why they should not just delete some abailities from WL as well, as they did with other classes allready.

Panzerkasper wrote: Thu Jul 31, 2025 9:21 am

Fey wrote: Thu Jul 31, 2025 12:23 am Imo the pull isn't the issue. It is the counterplay.

It sucks being pulled, but that's okay. It's a mechanic that has existed and been balanced around for the entire history of the game. That's of course not a justification in and of itself. But It's fine to have pull as a very powerful cc ability, because this game in general does not have the very punishing cc mechanics of other games. Swtor had a friendly target pull, but offensive target pull is one of the things that make this game unique.

I'm thinking specifically of WoW stun lock, but also things like Blackout from GW1. You disable all abilities on your target, as well as yourself. Duration as well in this game as far as CC goes is very low. Compare Mez and root durations of over a minute in DaoC, and you will understand how CC takes a backseat in this game.

However those games don't have knockback or pull. (can't remember Swtor that well) So in my mind the existence of pull and punt in particular are a unique facet of this particular game. It also allows for a very fun tank experience as they are one of the primary cc'rs.

Pull itself is very strong, yet it can be countered. Pet KD (sometimes) and Marauder taunt. The issue is that the counterplay itself is very weak. Pull does not go on CD when interrupted. That is poor game design, and it does not reward the quick-fingered tank who taunts or knocks down a pull. Put a CD on cast for, Terrible Embrace, and Fetch! Then if a tank counters the pull you will properly reward the tank, and make the mara/WL adjust their gameplay instead of just recasting the ability.

Countering a pull as a tank, and then having the pull just get recast is among the most frustrating aspects of playing a tank. Pulls should have always had a cooldown on cast, and not on the completion of the cast. IMO is is really basic game design, and a glaring oversight.

The pet still pulls while in KD, I have seen this on multiple occasion now.

Maybe this should be fixed first.

The pet does not pull while in KD, the only way that happens is a delay issue. Can be for WL and pet. Also the SW "counter" of the pull is a delay issue. Netcode while flying is even more wonky than usual. I teleported myself back to where I stood after being pulled yesterday on my SW. Hilarious for me, smh moment for the marauder, im sure.

Let's be honest, WL is ridiculous, as is this delay in adjusting it. It's been like this for far too long. Just look at the blobs, which put WL ahead, jumping into the background of Destruction's WBs and spinning, taking 50/60/70% of the HP of healers/mages/rangers... not to mention how much the pet is hitting; there are a lot of things wrong with WL.

There's no way to handle that much armor pen, especially after the armor potion nerf. Let's be more honest and try to maintain a healthy game. WL is very OP and easy to play these days.

In stalemate WB vs WB play, the ability to hit snare/root immunity, Pounce in, do X, Y, Z, then dip out is not mirrored to Destro.

If the WL can't get out on their own, the SM pounces to them to be in guard range.

This all made sense when Destro had a material population advantage... basically creating an Order Meta of super defensive/sturdy tank front-line with a mobile jump-in kill squad supported by ranged classes bypassing all resistance. However, with the population favoring Order or equal numbers more, the WL advantages are even more obvious.

Why play Slayer?
Why play any other Order melee?

Agree also that the arm pen is ridiculous. Every class should have a base level of mitigation that cannot be bypassed (e.g., Light Armor 20% physical / 40% base magic resistance, Medium Armor 30% physical / 30% base magic resistance, Heavy 40% physical / 20% magic resistance). Similar to how the dev team addressed Parry/Block bypass, perhaps something similar to Armor / Resistance would be nice.

Illuminati wrote: Thu Jul 31, 2025 5:17 pm In stalemate WB vs WB play, the ability to hit snare/root immunity, Pounce in, do X, Y, Z, then dip out is not mirrored to Destro.

But it is countered. By GTDC and AoE stuns. Wasting immunities? Tough luck. These realm priders cried over slayer until it got nerfed into oblivion and now you cry about WL. Pull yourself together. Frist you came for BW, then SW, then Slayers and now WL is on your list?

JohnnyWayne wrote: Thu Jul 31, 2025 5:44 pm
But it is countered. By GTDC and AoE stuns. Wasting immunities? Tough luck. These realm priders cried over slayer until it got nerfed into oblivion and now you cry about WL. Pull yourself together. Frist you came for BW, then SW, then Slayers and now WL is on your list?

ah cmon... the only poeple crying here, are the ones pretending that WL is in a good state, and dont want their no-brain imba hero gets balanced.
same people who still cry about the slayer nerf, while everyone knew that the class was broken. Even the game knew it was broken, since it caused lags everytime when 2 slayers spamed in SC. And you are still cry about the necessary balance nerf. Now you cry about the next necessary nerf, while everyone can see the elephant in the room. Even the honest WL players i know say its op, so far that they dont wnat to play their toon cause its boring and doesnt feel good to be that broken.

kleinbuchstabe wrote: Thu Jul 31, 2025 6:58 pm

JohnnyWayne wrote: Thu Jul 31, 2025 5:44 pm
But it is countered. By GTDC and AoE stuns. Wasting immunities? Tough luck. These realm priders cried over slayer until it got nerfed into oblivion and now you cry about WL. Pull yourself together. Frist you came for BW, then SW, then Slayers and now WL is on your list?

ah cmon... the only poeple crying here, are the ones pretending that WL is in a good state, and dont want their no-brain imba hero gets balanced.
same people who still cry about the slayer nerf, while everyone knew that the class was broken. Even the game knew it was broken, since it caused lags everytime when 2 slayers spamed in SC. And you are still cry about the necessary balance nerf. Now you cry about the next necessary nerf, while everyone can see the elephant in the room. Even the honest WL players i know say its op, so far that they dont wnat to play their toon cause its boring and doesnt feel good to be that broken.

Drawing a parallel between the Slayer and the WL is honestly dishonest. The Slayer did deserve a nerf on Rampage, sure — but nothing more. Now it’s a wreck with zero utility.

We’re talking about a class (the WL) that literally has all the advantages with no drawbacks.

Just as a reminder: the Slayer loses half of his resistances to get a DPS that’s now honestly not even that great.

So yes, toning down the WL and giving the Slayer a buff is nothing but common sense.

And for the love of balance — stop swinging the nerf hammer like a lumberjack!

WL is the last Order DPS that did not got nerf hammered because of crocodile tear nerf demands. Go on with that police and there is nothing left for order side to play around. Then you have the roflstop destro melee train all day long with less and less enemys to fight day by day. And then you will wonder why nobody wants to play against you anymore.

The selective outrages when it comes to ballance in this game are really wild. Pointing out the sticks of the opponent while ignoring the iron baseball bats you walk around with

You managed to get the ballance team to take away the 100% block bypass from the single Order class that had it, while totally ignoring that destro still has the monopoly on 100% block on multiple tank classes.

Since ever we have to deal with the fact that one side has the monopoly on reaching M3 when the other barely got half to M2.

Now even keep defences are basically impossible if the attacker uses his monopoly on immunity free multi punt, where both sides of the door just end up being pressed against the walls mid air and unable to use any ability.


Nothing changed on the WL. It is still the same class since the big ability change. All that changed was that you got all other order DPS nerfed hard enough to get the last players that never wanted to play a WL, do it now because there is no other choice to stay competitive.

For god sake finally lock and close this Hellspawn troll treat before it spirals into the third big player departure caused by overreaction nerfs