DPS spec tank/healer Hypocrisy

[Kali14]

Detaunt has a higher priority than guard, which means that a guarded meleeDD can prevent his tank from taking lots of damage by simply using his aoe-detaunt.

You read in my minds. This is the most needed for slayer/choppa which may detaunt enemies around 30 ft from them on 5 sec and this ability have 30 sec CD. What make them paper classes without none defeance against RDPS and unable to play without GUARD! Also ability "challange" is weird (all enemies dealing only 50% dmg until they don't hit tank 3 times). Unfornatelly we are too much "pro" players who always skip tanks and go try kill healers first...lol. I come back to discission "How make giant slayer spec usefull..." And the answear is - make Spellbreaker AOE ability Eureka!

[th3gatekeeper]

Balance should revolve around people playing competently within a group setting.

That being said, I do empathise with concerns brought by you and others from the NA. It is painfully dead at times, and scenarios barely pop. However, how do you faciltiate to the NA lot while not having an overbearing effect on overall balance, too?

Will 'fixing guard' (I don't think it needs any fixing, personally) really bring about more people? We have to be realistic, too.

Peter,

This has always been my goal. How do we facilitate low pop times without having an effect on overall balance. I think there are MANY ways to do this with guard, which is why I am looking for community feedback, rather than just saying "this is the way". I have proposed several ideas that I dont think would break guard... There are MANY ways to do this. As I have said multiple times on multiple previous pages. This is how I see it.

In "competitive" 6 man groups - nearly everyone has guard. 2-2-2 teams, between 2 tanks, easily can swap guard to any target being focused. So for the sake of argument, guard in this example has near 100% uptime on any group member.

This, is ONE of the biggest advantages premades have over PUG groups and why premade groups will ROFL stomp all over nearly ANY pug group - Guard.

So why not seek to make guard work more like this for PUG groups - which will have NO impact on premade groups? In fact, one could argue that making guard an aura, actually moves UP the skill ceiling since now you have to coordinate punting 2 tanks to nuke 1 target, or KD 1 tank (outside guard range) and punt the other.


I have thought about this A LOT, and the solution I like the most is this:
"Guard: You prepare your defenses, ready to intercept any damage meant for an ally within 25 feet of you, increasing your chance to defend against all attacks by 10%." (obviously change of text requires client control, but this would be akin how I imagine it)

So this is an AoE aura, with a selfish benefit (10% more chance to defend) which encourages ALL tanks to use this. Basically this selfish benefit will make it so all tanks will cast this ability and have it up 100% of the time. Now, if a tank wants to guard, he merely just runs NEAR his target and now with a 25 foot "requirement" it actually makes it harder to have this applied to all group members at once. Adding 10% chance to defend, also helps with taking too much damage, and the 25 foot aura also will mean it will be much harder to see your full party in that range. 25 feet also makes punts stronger, since it creates a longer "run back" period to get within range of 25 feet.

What this DOES allow now, are MDPS who are not "coordinating" with the tank, so maybe start assisting off a tank and staying near him (rather than it being on the tank to stay near the MDPS) to get guard. There becomes (now) a way where that MDPS has some level of "control" where he can get guard. This removes 100% of the blame on the tank for not using it.


Now, why does this help NA times? Because right now, NA players are more on the "fringe" of high population times. So, for instance, many times when I get a chance to log on on weeknights, I will check the webpage and see 200-300 people online (versus 3-4x that number during peak times). When I get on, very few people are on my friends list, and very few are on my guild page. Point being, lower pop times, NA players are FORCED to play without a full group. Now, since I play a tank, we always have a tank, but when I played MDPS, trying to find a GOOD tank that used guard was a HUGE pain in the ass. So I often had to play without one. Speaking from experience personally, and talking with MANY NA friends, who would solo or Duo Que as MDPS or RDPS or even healers... people got sick of getting rolled by a premade group, or a coordinated group, who used guard, and assisted, when they look around and see 3-4 tanks in the SC, all of which are 2H, stacking STR, and not using guard. Maybe casting it on an ally, but not then staying within range...

Its an EXTREMELY common problem, which leads to rage quits and people not wanting to play. As I said, I have two NA friends who have rage quit, uninstalled, and are not playing in the last 2 weeks alone, because they got sick of solo or duo Queing and people not doing their role... One was a Sorc, the other a Mara. Now we can all "ROFL a Mara QQd blah blah" yes, Mara are very strong, maybe OP, but play a mara in SCs solo, without guard, and you will melt FAST. As a sorc, not having a frontline, is what caused the other friend to quit.

Now, when we were ALL on, it was pure bliss. Another NA buddy is a DOK, I am a Chosen/BG, and so we had a nice little 4 man with 1 heal, 1 tank, 1 MDPS, 1 RDPS. Was easy to do ANYTHING. But if I couldnt play, or DOK couldnt play.... We literally created a facebook chat just to coordinate play times, but over time zones and schedules, it didnt always line up....

Anyone on EU times wont understand this. You type in LFG and there are several players who are not half bad who will join you... But not late nights. This is where many NA players find themselves and due to the selfless guard mechanic that is SOOO critical for success in combat... it truly makes for a miserable experience.

So tell me, what would be the negative impact or how would it "break" the game if guard worked how I suggested above?
- 25 foot aura, active for any group member, tanks 10% increase chance to defend attacks when active.

(Side note: A secondary way to encourage this, would be modify the tactic "Focused Offense" to make it so GUARD "increases your damage by 25%" however your chance to defend attacks is reduced by 10% OR... maybe "Guard's effectiveness reduced 25%, to make it a 75%/25% split) so even this encourages the "DPS Tanks" to use Guard. Just another IDEA...

I think this would create a much more "friendly" solo Que experience, where all tanks will run guard all the time, players can choose then to stick together and get the benefits of guard or not - but now its on the guard-ee to get guard for himself NOT the tanks job.

[ragafury]

Every Tank is encouraged to use guard.
Problem is most people are bad in theory. They just see there HP bar melt and think omg guarding that guy killed me. that's basically wrong. they equipped there char wrong and play wrong anyway.

Using guard is always a benefit. You splitting the incoming damage by half.
If your guarded target had not avoided the attack you start to take damage. by the moment you take damage you have a chance to avoid the damage again with parry / dodge and so on.
when this failed you are taking the damage - your tougness and -your armor and -your resistances.

This is always beneficial because multiple layers are created to protect HP and splitting dmg gives your healer much needed reaction time to heal.

Tanks are wearing heavy armor and have auras which grant high resistances.

The Tanks you are talking about Th3Gatekeeper will die anyway.
They are using stuff like focused offensive (-33% armor for +10%dmg), no toughness tactic, no wounds tactic, no auras which benefit there EHP, cause there priority is not to fullfil there archetype, there priority is to compete with damage dealers damage wise. So you can change guard back and forth, the outcome is the same, you have a tank which is simply not able to guard a target.

All your changes will not create better or more tanks. some people just don't know the basics of the game so they forget to guard, or are not using it correctly and so on.

The other so called DPS Tanks have no intention to fullfill there archtype when it's needed.

[th3gatekeeper]

Every Tank is encouraged to use guard.
Problem is most people are bad in theory. They just see there HP bar melt and think omg guarding that guy killed me. that's basically wrong. they equipped there char wrong and play wrong anyway.

Using guard is always a benefit. You splitting the incoming damage by half.
If your guarded target had not avoided the attack you start to take damage. by the moment you take damage you have a chance to avoid the damage again with parry / dodge and so on.
when this failed you are taking the damage - your tougness and -your armor and -your resistances.

This is always beneficial because multiple layers are created to protect HP and splitting dmg gives your healer much needed reaction time to heal.

Tanks are wearing heavy armor and have auras which grant high resistances.

The Tanks you are talking about Th3Gatekeeper will die anyway.
They are using stuff like focused offensive (-33% armor for +10%dmg), no toughness tactic, no wounds tactic, no auras which benefit there EHP, cause there priority is not to fullfil there archetype, there priority is to compete with damage dealers damage wise. So you can change guard back and forth, the outcome is the same, you have a tank which is simply not able to guard a target.

Please stop acting like this is a L2P issue. It's not..Many solo.players know what to do, how to.play in the most "elite" levels of play. This game isn't that hard guys... Maybe everyone just has big egos and think that they have "mastered" this game and everyone else just sucks... That's what Im starting to get from all the attitudes here. Acting like anyone who dislikes the.mechanic is just a noob or anyone who solo Qs is just a noob... People largely know how to play... But are limited MANY times on what they can play due to population.... Also many.players ignore how they should.play in favor of "having fun" because (for the last time) some mechanics in this game (like Guard) are NOT fun and thus NOT used when people get home from a.long day and.just wanna go bash someone in the head.... I've been there on.my tank before too. I get a scrub lvl 32 Mara in.my.group who sucks. I.may guard him at first and he plays like a scrub, so I undo guard and just run around hitting stuff to unwind... I guess shame on me for wanting to play RoR in those moments when I don't feel like "trying hard".

Sure its their fault then for not playing "optimally" but take a step back and get off your high horse for just ONE second and ask this question... Shouldn't we make the optimal mechanics be FUN? Why do people play? To have fun? Well I haven't met many tanks who thinks that guard is fun... I don't.. and main tanks here and in almost every video game I play.... And this is probably the least fun game to "tank" in I have played.... But it's maybe the most critical role in this game and since I can't rely.on others to do it, I stick with it to try and better my team.... But as I said before to the guy who likes guard... We are the minority of players that solo q.

[th3gatekeeper]

when this failed you are taking the damage - your tougness and -your armor and -your resistances.

Also, IDK if I underatnd you here, but damage you take from guard is not impacted by any of those things.... You merely "split" the damage your guarded target took, and have a chance to parry/block it (not dodge/disrupt it).

So things like toughness/armor/resists DONT impact the damage you take from guarding someone.

[lilsabin]

Th#gatekeeper , you are my hero man, u need to tell me where you find that energy to keep on repeating your ideas over and over again ...

[ragafury]

when this failed you are taking the damage - your tougness and -your armor and -your resistances.

Also, IDK if I underatnd you here, but damage you take from guard is not impacted by any of those things.... You merely "split" the damage your guarded target took, and have a chance to parry/block it (not dodge/disrupt it).

So things like toughness/armor/resists DONT impact the damage you take from guarding someone.

well whatever still you will not create more tanks by changing guard, or create better tanks.

the problem on the baseline will still be the same:

1. players who play tanks and are not good at it (guarding healers 150 units away, guarding damage dealers FA, not adjusting the playstyle to the guarded target and so on)
2. players who play there tank for lul DPS and don't give a duck about being a benefit to there group, they just dive backline and die there while nobody can follow.

Short addition:

And you don't create more FUN by changing it. you are taking it from me as an example. because I like being usefull and not an afk buff dispenser / follow your melee bot. The ability is proven usefull since days of dark age of camelot.

And how do you think your suggested change will not take a major overhaul on most dmg dealers and even healers and there abilities.

[Luth]

Detaunt has a higher priority than guard, which means that a guarded meleeDD can prevent his tank from taking lots of damage by simply using his aoe-detaunt.

You read in my minds.[...]

My post wasn't about my opinion or a suggestion; it was about how all detaunts work together with the guard ability and meant as clarification/hint.

[Thifall]

when this failed you are taking the damage - your tougness and -your armor and -your resistances.

Also, IDK if I underatnd you here, but damage you take from guard is not impacted by any of those things.... You merely "split" the damage your guarded target took, and have a chance to parry/block it (not dodge/disrupt it).

So things like toughness/armor/resists DONT impact the damage you take from guarding someone.

furthermore, if atack used is undefendable for wahtever reason (core ability function, buffs or pockets), guard is unable to defend it.

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source:
https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=18457&p=200717&hilit=undefendable+attack#p200717

I am not fun of that, since i play tank, but it is as it is you need to work arround those

[Kali14]

Why defensive specced tank or healing specced healer should play solo when this is almost not Impossible because this game is focused on killing. Good luck to hit an enemy 5 min before he die or so...That specced players will always play only in organized groups even if this is only open WB. I don't think you find people who want be Someone's shield and to everything need help. In pug SC healers and tanks will almost always DPS with additional option to "heal" and "guard" just for "f..k off" With healers this become cheanged by abx.mode. Now time on tanks