DoK/WP with book/chalice...

[Tesq]

i just miss my sov, i frequently run into points problem currently and no dok/wp cannot spam endlessly with sov too you need to play more front line for that, so you either spec back line and spam less and heal more or play more front line like i used to play with sov.
The separation point it's the epic chalice which give 10 instead 8 resource.

I played always with t4 influence def chalice cos i played more front line and so spammy and the differene is that 10 regen x sec allow you to spam more carelessly than the t4 influence one.
All sov sets were fine, heals need to be spam , ppl need to be hot ... "any" healer was able to do that in sov be it am/shammy or dok/wp/zeal/rune which is why 1.3.6 have really few difference between healers. Of course you had 1 dok/wp x party and zealot/rune give you a heal increase but i always had 2x shammy in wb. Every healer was viable and dind't melt or let his party melt.
I personally tryed it and front line/or secondary line dok/wp can spam for every 250 point used at least 2x heals more than a backlines.
If in 1.4.0 dok/wp were able to stay back and heal better it was due to crit rate+ crti value increase+ low cast time+ x4 worn/sov jew that gave regen or tovl jew sets. This wont happen here.
Of course play front line is risky as hell which also lead to better rewards; with out count the out of group heal that heal 9x ppl that need to be used front line.

Compared to this zealot/rune have a lot more easier ap controll.

then you can argument about how dok/wp have 2 meccanic but the reality is different, when a party have an ap regen of any source the whole dok/wp meccanis is worst as the pool is lower 250 vs 300 and the consume is higer due to 2x aoe heals vs 1 of other healer in the same time. Which require by dok/wp the constant use of aoe rec which also remove the aoe de-taunt.
It's really hard keep up heal with a zealot/rune if you don't have rhythm.

[Nameless]

there is some myth that dok/wp cant produce good ST healing. The cd on their group healing tools + their core healing that is primary ST can and will suprass ST healing that backline healers provide.
Add to that guard splitting the damange and you could see why wp/dok are mandatory no matter other 5 classes from the group

group heal tools suprass single target tools
guard split damage help group healing to the point where it is solely enough to keep your teammates up

[Annaise16]

The 3 main things that should be looked at when balancing healing dok/wp is the big advantage of medium armor over light armor in terms of survivability, the group cleanse, and the SE/RF regen mechanic.

The SE/RF regen mechanic is the easiest part to balance. You simply need to limit it to a maximum value of +10 regen. A +8 value is still a liability when healing continuously and requires fairly frequent use of one the manual methods of SE/RF regen. A +12 value made it laughably easy to maintain SE/RF while healing continuously. I always found that a +10 value allowed me to heal almost continuously, with the occasional manual use of regen, as long as I gave some thought to the choice of heals used.

I've pointed out in earlier posts that cloth armor toons take between 20%-30% more physical damage than medium armor toons, with all other things being equal such as talis, buffs, or pots. That's a huge advantage over clothies and it also seriously imbalances other aspects of the game such as a tank's use of Guard. When you have almost-unkillable healers, the tanks can focus on guarding the mdps, especially slayers and choppas. A nerf to the survivability of wp/dok would force tanks to spend more time guarding their healers and less time guarding their mdps. This would open fights up. Mdps would be forced to make better use of their detaunts, slayers and choppas would have to drop rage more often, and marauders might have to make more use of monstro stance. It would also present more viable targets for rdps toons.

A 25%-30% nerf to their armor value would probably be fair amount if it applied to armor gain from talis, pots and buffs as well as base armor. You could apply this nerf as a % debuff on tomes/chalice or by using a tactic similar to Focused Offense. I will say more in later paragraphs about how this tactic would work.

The group cleanse tactic is an abomination. Not only does it provide a large advantage for wp/dok over other healers, it simply makes the game imbalanced. It unfairly disadvantages dot classes and, perhaps worst of all, is always used to defend the existence of that other abomination - Shattered Limbs (and Bad Gas). Removing the group cleanse from the game would allow a nerf to Shattered Limbs and Bad Gas, and make dot classes more viable.

So if you got rid of the group cleanse tactic, what could you replace it with? This is a chance to kill two birds with one stone. I would make the tactic into the wp/dok equivalent of Focused Offense. It would have the 25% or 30% armor debuff mentioned above combined with an amount of SE/RF regen as the buff. I would choose a +4 regen amount.

This change would necessitate changing the SE/RF regen on chalice/tome items. A white item would have +1 regen, green would have +2, blue would have +3, purple would have +5, and gold would have +6 regen. So a toon that had the tactic equipped and a purple chalice/tome would have a total of +9 SE/RF regen. The tactic would be placed at the lowest tactic slot in the healing mastery paths of wp/dok so that it becomes available in tier 2. The existing tactics would then be moved up one slot each.


Making the changes described above would bring healing wp/doks into closer alignment with the cloth healers. Doing this would open the game up as described above, making it more exciting for everyone.

[Scrilian]

Not going to address the imaginary math this time, but this was already discussed numerous times - realms are not equal with the way they have access to various very valuable debuffs, with one side having it arguably much easier to spec, apply and maintain while still remain viable.

Crippling Strikes, Blast wave, Thunderous Blow, baseline-noCD Ice Spikes, on-hit Kisses, no CD outgoing Mind Killer or even Curse of Khaine - just a few great examples of the top of my head that are/could be taken in almost every build, and easily covered with Covenant of Celerity debuff.
Heck one class even the debuff god!

While Order has some of debuffs tied to 2h weapons, some require certain tactics to maintain, located in not so desired trees and even with that said usually have a bit higher cooldowns on it or even laughable SM debuff 4-5 durations, and no aura-debuff proc to interfere with aoe cleanse.

Not always though, some debuffs are very strong like the dessie-dreaded Shatter Limbs or not mirrored Playing with Fire. On the other hand Order usually had quite a bit more raw damage with BAL, Runefang, Spellbreaker etc., better aoe-trees/buffs(crit/WW) is most cases and more ranged reliable stun CC like Drop'n'Roll and Eye Shot instead of ranged disarms of destro.

But in no way the realm, lets call it, "powerlevel" is broken with kills/zone locks going both ways, despite many claim it to be. There is a certain beauty to it, not "abomination".
Removing aoe cleanse is one sided at best and obvious bias at worst

[Sigimund]

The 3 main things that should be looked at when balancing healing dok/wp is the big advantage of medium armor over light armor in terms of survivability, the group cleanse, and the SE/RF regen mechanic.

I think the effectiveness of armor is much easier to quantify than the effectiveness of kiting, therefore kiting is underestimated. Although I grant that armor is passive.

While I was hoping to test using the group cleanse as part of a future T4 lifetap build (untargeted abilities are better if you're busy in melee), your logic is sound.

I like your regen suggestion a lot.

[Annaise16]

Not going to address the imaginary math this time, but this was already discussed numerous times - realms are not equal with the way they have access to various very valuable debuffs, with one side having it arguably much easier to spec, apply and maintain while still remain viable.

Crippling Strikes, Blast wave, Thunderous Blow, baseline-noCD Ice Spikes, on-hit Kisses, no CD outgoing Mind Killer or even Curse of Khaine - just a few great examples of the top of my head that are/could be taken in almost every build, and easily covered with Covenant of Celerity debuff.
Heck one class even the debuff god!

While Order has some of debuffs tied to 2h weapons, some require certain tactics to maintain, located in not so desired trees and even with that said usually have a bit higher cooldowns on it or even laughable SM debuff 4-5 durations, and no aura-debuff proc to interfere with aoe cleanse.

Not always though, some debuffs are very strong like the dessie-dreaded Shatter Limbs or not mirrored Playing with Fire. On the other hand Order usually had quite a bit more raw damage with BAL, Runefang, Spellbreaker etc., better aoe-trees/buffs(crit/WW) is most cases and more ranged reliable stun CC like Drop'n'Roll and Eye Shot instead of ranged disarms of destro.

But in no way the realm, lets call it, "powerlevel" is broken with kills/zone locks going both ways, despite many claim it to be. There is a certain beauty to it, not "abomination".
Removing aoe cleanse is one sided at best and obvious bias at worst

Pretty much everything you quoted is either mirrored on both realms, uncleansable by dok/wp, or single target abilities that can still be cleansed by dok/wp. I m not advocating removing cleanse from dok/wp. I am advocating the removal of the group cleanse tactic.

[Scrilian]

Well I told you exactly why the proposed nerf is bad and one sided due to difference in speccing/applying/maintaining debuffs between the realms, yet somehow you are oblivious to it.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

A 25%-30% nerf to their armor value would probably be fair amount if it applied to armor gain from talis, pots and buffs as well as base armor. You could apply this nerf as a % debuff on tomes/chalice or by using a tactic similar to Focused Offense. I will say more in later paragraphs about how this tactic would work.

Proven wrong already.
25%-30% means nothing if you cant back it up with a calculation.

Did it for you already. 22,6% difference was the outcome for AM/Sham
(without regenerative shielding/warping the spirit)

Combined with their superior kiting ability it means nothing, especially that a wp/dok has superior ae heal (100f range) and therefore needs to stand closer to be efficient.
If you have the movement of a stone ofc you see an unfair advantage here.
On destro side shami can be tankier than a dok and on order side rp can be tankier than wp, against melee and ranged.
I already gave you the calculation for rp>wp.
Shaman > dok is due to tactic detaunt and a significantly higher toughness, making up easily for the 22,6% armor disadvantage. Tactic detaunt alone is 12,5%, toughness % depends on the enemies offensive stat.

Now that we know that wp/dok are not significantly tankier than any other healer, why do they need less armor?

The SE/RF regen mechanic is the easiest part to balance. You simply need to limit it to a maximum value of +10 regen. A +8 value is still a liability when healing continuously and requires fairly frequent use of one the manual methods of SE/RF regen. A +12 value made it laughably easy to maintain SE/RF while healing continuously. I always found that a +10 value allowed me to heal almost continuously, with the occasional manual use of regen, as long as I gave some thought to the choice of heals used.

See Sigmarpriests post, Ap healers can spam, double ressource healers can too.
AP healers are easier to shut down, yet they are not easy to catch. (stone movement remember?)
With WP/dok being more stationary and have to stand closer to the enemy (100f) they are at a greater risk to get drained, or heal debuffed. Which results in more heal spam.

[istvar]

what about dok/zealot and WP/AM?

[istvar]

also what makes zealot better at kiteing than the DoK for example? flash heal? LOL

what exactly makes the RP "tankier" than the WP vs melee? 3 minute cd, severable "aoe detaunt? ancestral inheritance + regen shielding? making u have to drop resto burst or blessings?

i know this will just end up being being answered with l2p but i am genuinely curious.