Shaman Discussion, more

[roadkillrobin]

lol, every good Shaman i ever known of have run RB and gheal spam. It's the only way to manage ap at all with the class and keep a guarded melee dps and tanks up. Ofc we do prehot with EQB and DSU and use cleanse on CD if needed. But as soon as the heavy presure comes we're really stuck to spam GR or people will just die. It's not a mather of how the class intended to be played or whatever, if we don't people die. And nomather how a class is designed or intended to work. People gonna do whatever is working and spamming groupheals under heavy pressure is the only thing that is working for the class.

[Euan]

Sulorie loves to argue just to argue it seems. There are many builds that are viable and yours is not optimal, in my opinion. Heal debuff is always welcomed even if it's trash like that shamans. Toughness debuff is not really good when you have aura debuffing about half. Tactic for 100 toughness debuff is not really worth it. It takes off morale of 1 person as opposed to giving your team a morale booster. If I felt like I needed to kite more I'd pick up Run Away instead of divine fury because I don't think SHaman does enough DPS to be giving up so much healing and kiting for 20% damage increase.


http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=sha ... 8:;0:0:0:0:

What ever works for you.

Not going to try to convince you, as I see it is pointless to explain why it is worse.

Weird considering I see you so often shoving your opiniong like it's fact. Different tone from "What ever works for you." and "That's not how you build Shaman." 3k posts, arguing some nonsense on the solo gank thread. Tomato/Nanji, is that you?

[Nameless]

make RB proc on cast then.
So gheal 6 chances to proc will go down, you will have chance to proc on hots and utility tools and will be available for dps shamans also

[Sulorie]

What ever works for you.

Not going to try to convince you, as I see it is pointless to explain why it is worse.

Weird considering I see you so often shoving your opiniong like it's fact. Different tone from "What ever works for you." and "That's not how you build Shaman." 3k posts, arguing some nonsense on the solo gank thread. Tomato/Nanji, is that you?

They are facts in this regard. On the other hand I wouldn't enter a tank discussion and claim that I know it all.
I just recognized that it is pointless to teach certain people. Bads remain bad and I could care less about it.
This is meant with "What ever works for you. ".

With other words, I rised a white flag, because I can't compete on your level.

[Euan]

Difference between me and you is that I see your **** posts like the most recent ones in the gank thread and I just ignore them because you're not worth discussing with. Your god complex is not attractive in the least. You decided to reply and try to pass my post as a joke so I thought I'd humor you. Now we should just take your word for it just because you say "that's not how you build Shaman.". I gave in because you questioned me and others might think not replying makes you right and it just opens discussion which is healthy. I thought I would elaborate more on the issues I see with SHaman, why you spec across all trees as dps is due to his damaging trees being weak, and of course the build and why. You should look up what a fact is and maybe not try to resort insults, especially when you're trying to take the high road. What's worse is I think you know you're wrong and you're trying hard to save face. Bye.

[Nekkma]

If i am wrong in my math or in my argument, tell me where i am wrong, just dont repeat the same **** over and over when i already debunked it enough.

I will stop being an asshole snide when people start trying to argument and rationalize their points instead of looking for people to agree with them.


I know you were but we also have people who repeat "RB ONLY PROMOTES GHEAL USE" or arguing that somehow the amount recovered in hots is irrelevant over and over and expect that to be an argument, is not.

Thats who i am snide towards.

Repeating the same irrelivant arguments, with different examples, is in no way debunking anything of what I said. You actually do not even adress my point so I would not get on any high horses about argumentation if I where you.

I will give you the same "courtesy" you gave me and explain it too you one more time.

The reason why the ap gained from a single hot is irrelevant is because it is completely random and impossible to predict. Hot ticks may crit when RB is already up (wasting ticks), target can die (wasting ticks), hot can be shattered (wasting ticks), hots may not crit (no tick). It is also impossible to keep someone alive with only hots, thus, the direct heling spells a shaman cast in between hots may also procc RB (wasting ticks). This makes it pointless to calculate what you theoretically can get back from one hot. Stating that 1 gcd gives you 150 ap holds as much merit as stating that 1 gcd gives you zero ap. Both a theoretically possible but none is probable. What is probable is that the 2-4 hots a shaman typically has running plus the extra direct healing means RB is close to constantly up. But this is the effect of cycling 6-10 gcds, not spending two as in your example (or one in your first example).

What is interesting is the total ap situation of the shaman, i.e. ap in from RB and ap out from casting healing spells. I have already agreed that with such a change, RB would be up close to 100 percent of the time. This means that we have a constant flow of 40 ap per 3 seconds coming in from RB. This would lead to a boost of the shamans single target healing for sure. If one considers this suggestion OP one should also crusade against the present iteration of RB as it provides a very high uptime with gheal spam (not as high as the suggested changed tho). Personally, I find it much more in line with the class to have good ap management with single target healing than gheal. As I have stated previosuly, I would rather change RB to a percentage on ability use than this suggestion. However, I have no issues with the proposed change as it would basically put us in the situaion we had with the WF procc at RR 100, i.e. no ap issues with double potions for the price of a tactic. Shamans did not dominate anything then and would not dominate anything now if this change was implemented. Put some pressure on the shaman and his healing will be greatly diminished. Let him freecast and suffer the conseuquenses.

[Sulorie]

I see your **** posts like the most recent ones in the gank thread

What gank thread? Oo

If his damaging trees are weak, then you won't spec offensively at all. Just certain skills are subpar but not worth mentioning as you don't have the points for them anyway. 3-spec is no tradeoff, it's the best overall package you can get.
When I post a spec then it is something to aim for, which might not be available yet due to lvlcap. Nobody asked how to spec currently.

On a last note. I am totally fine with you calling me names, because this is the price I have to pay, when talking with ignorants.
But for the sake of this thread, could we stop to derail the thread with personal attacks?

[Qwack]

After reading through the comments I think its safe to say that there are several viable setups for both Healing and DPSing. Having run and tested just about every possible combination of specs and gear during live, I am certainly of the notion that there are a variety of good specs for different situations

GROUP HEAL: In Gates of Ekrund and Morkain (or any small and walled SC) I will absolutely slot RB and spam Group Heal. The LOS blocking via many corners and walls along with the tightness of the map while being able to hide-n-heal make it ideal for such setup. For ORVR, 6 man roaming or large, open SCs I tend to take Run Away over RB (often depending on group composition, are we a Kiting group or Melee train?). Its just my preference, its not Shammy Law .

AP: I don't feel AP is a massive issue overall. For DPS its definitely not, just pick good targets for AP tap. For healing it can be a problem if you have a Knight running his AP drain aura OR you have an AM dipping in and out of range to pop his own AP tap on ya OR there are no pets around (which are of course the best AP resevoirs). That's where you wish your own AP tap didn't cost so much or wasn't defendable.

Oh and don't forget, you can switch your tactics on the fly just before combat. I often do. Are we as a group entering a keep to defend? Switch to RB. Are we as a group about to be hit by a huge Zerg, switch to Run Away. I even keep equipment on my bars for switching out on the fly, usually just different staffs.

[Gobtar]

AP: I don't feel AP is a massive issue overall. For DPS its definitely not, just pick good targets for AP tap. For healing it can be a problem if you have a Knight running his AP drain aura OR you have an AM dipping in and out of range to pop his own AP tap on ya OR there are no pets around (which are of course the best AP resevoirs). That's where you wish your own AP tap didn't cost so much or wasn't defendable.

Yeah my T4 AP issues is that majority of the time your AP drain gets defended against. Maybe the AP drain can be fixed rather than crutching with tactics (which was my knee-jerk reaction apparently).

[Qwack]

AP: I don't feel AP is a massive issue overall. For DPS its definitely not, just pick good targets for AP tap. For healing it can be a problem if you have a Knight running his AP drain aura OR you have an AM dipping in and out of range to pop his own AP tap on ya OR there are no pets around (which are of course the best AP resevoirs). That's where you wish your own AP tap didn't cost so much or wasn't defendable.

Yeah my T4 AP issues is that majority of the time your AP drain gets defended against. Maybe the AP drain can be fixed rather than crutching with tactics (which was my knee-jerk reaction apparently).

The quickest fix would be to reduce its cost. I could see 20-25 AP being reasonable. Changing the nature of what can defend it might involve more coding.