[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[Bozzax]

I played destruction exclusively so I'll have to answer this from a Dok perspective. Compared to WP I'd say the most noticeable diffs are a snare proc and an extra 10% parry.

Please point out where melee WP has:
- Gap closing tools
- Convenient tools to stick on target

Flee + AP-pot and RF attacks, Glue bomb, Chargers pocket, Run speed tally, Snare, Self cleanse, (Quick Escape 1)

- MDPS-type CC breakers
- Crushing burst damage or indeed strong sustained damage

Ol’Guildie of mine Heavensfury best melee healer I’ve ever seen. He showed me everything I know about melee healing.

When he and Derfell (tank also in the vid) duo:ed the lakes they wiped 6mans regularly. Hell I even think he did it alone from time to time if they were pugs.

https://youtu.be/Y0tva41W5oQ
https://youtu.be/XFSzCOxVnOg

EDIT: Also look carefully how he uses Devour Essence (Sigmar's Shield) like a PRO and why it is far from useless.

EDIT2: This was with Consume Essence (when melee healers was stronger) and that is also the reason why I suggested to add back a group AOE heal over time to the melee healers on the 11pts tactic. That would make them less vuln. to KDs and interrupts as well as give some base group heal.

EDIT3: The 11pts tactic that was nerfed "Consume Essence now heals for 150% of the damage it deals, and Transfer Essence now heals for 100% of the damage it deals." and made melee healing much weaker/harder.

- Crowd control

ST Snare, ST Silence, (M3) AOE Stagger

- Baseline AoE detaunt

Their specable is 100% uptime compared to MDPSs that has 50% uptime

[Scottx125]

I played destruction exclusively so I'll have to answer this from a Dok perspective. Compared to WP I'd say the most noticeable diffs are a snare proc and an extra 10% parry.

Please point out where melee WP has:
- Gap closing tools
- Convenient tools to stick on target

Flee + AP-pot and RF attacks, Glue bomb, Chargers pocket, Run speed tally, Snare, (Quick Escape 1)

- MDPS-type CC breakers
- Crushing burst damage or indeed strong sustained damage

Ol’Guildie of mine Heavensfury best melee healer I’ve ever seen. He showed me everything I know about melee healing.

When he and Derfell (tank also in the vid) duo:ed the lakes they wiped 6mans regularly. Hell I even think he did it alone from time to time if they were pugs.

https://youtu.be/Y0tva41W5oQ
https://youtu.be/XFSzCOxVnOg

- Crowd control

ST Snare, ST Silence, (M3) AOE Stagger

- Baseline AoE detaunt

Their specable is 100% uptime compared to MDPSs that has 50% uptime

EDIT: Also look carefully how he uses Devour Essence (Sigmar's Shield) like a PRO and why it is far from useless

So a WP needs to rely on potions and renown specing? Sorry but those should not be a necessity to play a class spec, or at least make it viable. Potions and renown are additions to make you stronger. And the Flee ability can easily be slowed or stopped making it useless, I know I've tried to use it running from destro and I nearly always get slowed and then killed.

[Bozzax]

We all rely on potions and renown spec to cover up the weaknesses of the classes we play.

This is how a top one of the "top ten" melee healers of all time played. My point of view and comments on this thread is based much on how he played what he could do and what he thought me.

Compared to him I was a noob melee dok and again it is a melee (healing) Doks perspective.

[ThePollie]

I've said it once, I'll say it again. I'll continue to say it because people feel the need not to listen.



Disciple of Khaines are not the same as Warrior Priests.

Devour Essence is not the same as Sigmar's Shield, it is in my opinion too different to be appropriately compared.

If you cast Sigmar's Shield and get a barrage of attacks, in its current form, you will lose a massive chunk of RF without warning or control. If you cast Devour Essence on someone, it simply functions regardless of the environment. Worst case, it hits nobody. Worst case for Sigmar's Shield is that you cripple your RF pool for the sake of maybe 1500 health.

Devour Essence is offensive, dealing damage and returning a part of it in healing. Sigmar's Shield is defensive, doing absolutely nothing unless the target is struck. Devour Essence functions even if the target is not being directly attacked, Sigmar's Shield is effectively disabled the moment the enemy alternates targets.

Cast Essence on someone, it heals regardless. Cast Shield and have them change targets, you've wasted the 20 second cooldown.

DoKs can recover their own AP in their melee healing mastery, we can not. DoKs can reduce enemy parry chance, we improve allied parry chance. DoKs can tactic their strength debuff to also reduce AP, we have to tactic ours just to get the debuff portion of it.

While we are mirror classes, people compare the two for the sake of balance far too often.

[Scottx125]

We all rely on potions and renown spec to cover up the weaknesses of the classes we play.

This is how a top one of the "top ten" melee healers of all time played. My point of view and comments on this thread is based much on how he played what he could do and what he thought me.

Compared to him I was a noob melee dok and again it is a melee (healing) Doks perspective.

I enjoy how you assume you speak for everyone.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. I'll continue to say it because people feel the need not to listen.



Disciple of Khaines are not the same as Warrior Priests.

Devour Essence is not the same as Sigmar's Shield, it is in my opinion too different to be appropriately compared.

If you cast Sigmar's Shield and get a barrage of attacks, in its current form, you will lose a massive chunk of RF without warning or control. If you cast Devour Essence on someone, it simply functions regardless of the environment. Worst case, it hits nobody. Worst case for Sigmar's Shield is that you cripple your RF pool for the sake of maybe 1500 health.

Devour Essence is offensive, dealing damage and returning a part of it in healing. Sigmar's Shield is defensive, doing absolutely nothing unless the target is struck. Devour Essence functions even if the target is not being directly attacked, Sigmar's Shield is effectively disabled the moment the enemy alternates targets.

Cast Essence on someone, it heals regardless. Cast Shield and have them change targets, you've wasted the 20 second cooldown.

DoKs can recover their own AP in their melee healing mastery, we can not. DoKs can reduce enemy parry chance, we improve allied parry chance. DoKs can tactic their strength debuff to also reduce AP, we have to tactic ours just to get the debuff portion of it.

While we are mirror classes, people compare the two for the sake of balance far too often.

I agree, the DoK ability in my opinion is far more powerful at the moment. Sigmar's Shield would be better if it was instant free cast (60-120 second cooldown) lasts 20 seconds and consumes 20-30 RF a second reducing all incoming damage by 50%. But that may be OP and I'll leave it to better minds to find a more balanced solution.

[Bozzax]

Devour Essence is not the same as Sigmar's Shield, it is in my opinion too different to be appropriately compared.

Weaker but fills the same main purpose (extra self heals) I have no problem it being mirrored not 100% sure you’ve made melee healing WPs better though.

DoKs can recover their own AP in their melee healing mastery, we can not.

Actually what do you mean here please elaborate a bit. If you mean Gift of Khaine I'd say you are wrong and if you think of Restorative Burst I'd be even more puzzled how it is done as melee healer.

Remember you play with KOTBSes that gives more passive AP then any tank in game.

DoKs can reduce enemy parry chance, we improve allied parry chance.

Doks get 10% parry strike through and 10% parry from DW
WPs get 10% parry and 10% block strike through from 2h

I’d say Dok is marginally better. Melee healing was always about to picking the soft target first and if there was only ”tankies” left you basically had won regardless. This mainly has an impact 1v1 though.

DoKs can tactic their strength debuff to also reduce AP

A melee healing dok shouldn't really use that tactic

[ThePollie]

Devour Essence is not the same as Sigmar's Shield, it is in my opinion too different to be appropriately compared.

Weaker but fills the same main purpose (extra self heals) I have no problem it being mirrored not 100% sure you’ve made melee healing WPs better though.
I'd rather it not be mirrored. I like Sigmar's Shield as a concept, it just needs buffed.

DoKs can recover their own AP in their melee healing mastery, we can not.

Actually what do you mean here please elaborate a bit.
Misread an ability, ignore.

DoKs can reduce enemy parry chance, we improve allied parry chance.

Doks get 10% parry strike through and 10% parry from DW
WPs get 10% parry and 10% block strike through from 2h
It's only a 10% block strike-through, unless they've changed it recently.
DW only gives 10% parry, unless they've also changed that recently.

I’d say Dok is marginally better. Melee healing was always about to picking the soft target first and if there was only ”tankies” left you basically had won regardless.

DoKs can tactic their strength debuff to also reduce AP

A melee healing dok shouldn't really use that tactic
And currently no WP should really use Sigmar's Shield. Point remains.

[Bozzax]

Dual Wield 10% parry, Warding Strike 10% parry strike through
Sigmar's Vision 10% parry, 2 hander 10% block strike through

I used WS mainly 1v1 and mostly on melee

[ThePollie]

Dual Wield 10% parry, Warding Strike 10% parry strike through
Sigmar's Vision 10% parry, 2 hander 10% block strike through

I used WS mainly 1v1 and mostly on melee

1- Both are mastery abilities and have to be spec't. Not everyone necessarily would grab either.
2- Warding Strike is not a parry strike-through. It's a debuff. It works for -everyone- attacking that target.
Sigmar's Vision requires you to buff an ally and have an enemy melee attack them to function. Warding Strike functions regardless of who is targeted.

[Luth]

Please point out where melee WP has:
- Gap closing tools
- Convenient tools to stick on target

Flee + AP-pot [...] Chargers pocket, Run speed tally [...] (Quick Escape 1)
[...]

I suggested to make that flee+AP pot crap impossible in the very early days of this server.
The other items/renown abilities should never be in the game for balancing reasons (explanation is posted below).

https://youtu.be/Y0tva41W5oQ
https://youtu.be/XFSzCOxVnOg

EDIT: Also look carefully how he uses Devour Essence (Sigmar's Shield) like a PRO and why it is far from useless.

Those show only how effective the dok is in 1vs1 situations, because of the good damage + selfheal.
There are also some group situations that only show how people die like flies around him, when they get the enemies attention.
What i see in this videos, is a player playing a healer class to mainly heal himself and his guardbot buddy in scs and to farm others in 1vs1/1vs2 where this class is OP. This has nothing to do with this topic at all.

On "devour essence": Maybe you want to compare the difference in the tooltips again here and here.
Also: he is simply using the ability for more damage output and to heal himself; it's a fire and forget ability; i can't see anything "PRO" in here...

We all rely on potions and renown spec to cover up the weaknesses of the classes we play.

This is how a top one of the "top ten" melee healers of all time played. My point of view and comments on this thread is based much on how he played what he could do and what he thought me.

Compared to him I was a noob melee dok and again it is a melee (healing) Doks perspective.

Weaknesses are part of the balancing. This is a MMO where different classes have different roles with different strengths and weaknesses, unlike newer MMOs where there is no "trinity" anymore (GW2).
If those weaknesses can be covered to much, the balancing is seriously damaged.
Imo the various active renown abilities and some of the passive should not be in the game for this reason.

As you stated it (and as it seems), your opinions on "melee healing" (imo it's more melee DPS-ing with selfheals) are rather based on the glorification/studies on a single player and his classes 1vsx potential, not shaped by a general perspective on the whole balancing situation.