[Split] Marauder discussion

[Bozzax]

... Piercing Bite for Brute Force

Stopped reading here

Plus the screenies I saw from lednail had 973 WS if I remember correctly.

[Ungrin]

... Piercing Bite for Brute Force

Stopped reading here

Plus the screenies I saw from lednail had 973 WS if I remember correctly.

From what I remember, she ran full Str over full WS. She ran around 1200 STR or so, which leads me to believe she ran full STR + III / IV crit and full TB.

Also, please post a counter-argument and statistics along with analysis before we continue discussion. I don't want to be seen as a troll, but if you don't want to talk about it I understand.

[Euan]

Why would you ever run 2 Marauders? Thats bad. 2 Slayers to keep up Shattered limbs but 2 Marauders? Why. Lol.

Ask SY and Aluba Shrimp, two of the best destro builds to every play on BL why they ran 2 marauders. Because Marauders were freakin OP son.

Also, I don't see a counter-argument. I figured we were going to have a discussion, not a troll-fest. I mean I pointed out exactly why Maras were overall better DPS than WL's, choppas/slayers, or WE's/WH's. WE's and choppas are just not survivable enough, and Marauder's could hit like trucks and are still insanely survivable. Considering every slayer ran full WS, going monstro significantly gimped the slayer's damage on their pushes.

I mean go on, I'd rather have a discussion than someone to just say "lol that's bad tho" and give no counter to what I've said.

A full dps marauder is not going to hit like a truck *cough slayer cough* what makes you think a monstro marauder is. You really don't know what you're talking about. Choppa not survivable enough, what? A choppa can control his rage. It is very tanky when guarded. It will out dps marauder. Stop, you're playing the most powerful mdps and dps in general.

[foof]

Now, let's compare WL's to Marauders:

Marauder's Cookie cutter build:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=mar ... 7:;0:0:0:0:

One could also make an argument to change out Piercing Bite for Brute Force, others would say you get capped on strength very easily on marauder and so Brute Force is unneeded and could be switched out for Piercing Bite. Regardless, that's usually the spec people played, and pumped up their WS for their AA's to hit really hard.

This build Usually means that the person ran around in Savagery, Debuffed their opponent, quickly switched to Brutality, and executed. This was seen mostly on Badlands as the EU server was heavily defensive and most groups ran and kited instead of fought toe-to-toe like we did on the NA server.

The White Lion's build:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=wl; ... 8:;0:0:0:0:

As well as this, obviously, others ran similar to slightly different build, but to build for optimum damage this is what people usually ran. Lednail ran full strength because her reasoning was "I don't attack tanks." while someone like Kymix, he can correct me if I'm wrong, ran higher WS because he liked his AA's to get through more armor on all his victims.

I will bold which tactic wins in each case:
This means that:

Marauder:
1. Growing Instability - 50% Crit Tactic - Who wouldn't love this. Doesn't need a pet for it. This wins.
2. Piercing Bite - 50% armor penetration - Wow, talk about free stats... This could be subbed for Brute Force, but seeing as how easily the Marauder can hit soft cap on his strength, there's really no reason to run Brute Force. This wins outright.
3. Flanking - 15% damage buff (from rear or sides) - Both careers run this. Tie.
4. Feeding on Fear - 20% crit tactic - Was bugged on live, still worth taking on RoR. This wins.

White Lion:
1. Pack Synergy - 50% Crit Tactic - Great tactic. Too bad you need a pet active for it. Pet dies, huge loss to DPS.
2. Pack Hunting - This brought your AA speed in line with the marauder (who dual wielded.) This means the marauder did not have to spec for the speed of his AA's while the WL had to spec to just be as fast as the marauder.
3. Flanking - 15% damage buff (from rear or sides) - Both careers run this. Tie.
4. Brute Force - Main stat tactic - Needed for WL as he has no Piercing bite tactic

The marauder although maybe not as mobile as the WL, doesn't need to be. It can pull. This pull is also not based on the pet so the only chance for it to fail comes from either a disrupt (which while possible is still less than the pet dying when the WL goes for the pull). This means that the Marauder can pull people TO him rather than put himself into harms way. This is a massive advantage.

The marauder also gets the melee debuff, wherein the melee gets hurt everytime they attack the marauder.
The marauder also gets a disarm, while the WL gets one as well, it's based on the pet.
The marauder also gets an interrupt, non-specced and not on a pet, this means the WL must have a pet out AND must spec for the interrupt. Marauder trounces the WL yet again.

I can go on, it's just pointless. You get the idea.

It isn't pointless, and I do get the idea, you are making a typical straw man argument. The only one making "troll/bait" arguments is you! What a joke.

I have specifically stated, numerous times, that I fully believe that WL's need buffs to be on par with Marauders overall. So your argument, isn't even particularly relevant, in fact, it is nothing because you are literally arguing against a viewpoint that nobody ever took.

Anyway, to fix some of the issues in your argument:

1. Piercing Bite is a 50% armor penetration tactic on specific (mutation req only) attacks. That being said it is a great tactic still, depending on your build.

2. Growing Instability used to be terrible. In finally, right before WAR died, got buffed to its current state. That being said, the WL tactic should be de-linked from the pet. Also good to note, GI is specced at 7 points, whilst the WL tactic is core.

3. You simply don't understand Pack Hunting, or auto attacks apparently. Saying that swinging a 2h with a 50% increase in AA speed is equivilant to dual wielding shows that you clearly don't understand the mechanics.

4. Yes, the Marauder pull is way better. How is that relevant to talking about burst damage. This is why you are making a strawman argument. The same goes for the rest of your points.

You simply are not very good at debating. You need to work on your reading comprehension skills, and try not to make so many logical fallacies. As I have specifically stated, that WL's need a rework and a buff, and that I never stated, they were overall as good or comparable to Marauders. Which unfortunately, seems to be the crux of your argument.

The point we were directly arguing, was burst damage. I can explain to you, how WL burst is clearly greater than Marauders burst, but after systematically reading your posts in this thread, I have the feeling that you are not open to debate whatsoever. You have already made up your mind based on questionable analytical skills, and attempting to educate you, will be a grand waste of time.

That being said, if you would like to continue the actual argument instead of creating a strawman, I would be more than happy to debate WL vs Marauder burst.

[Ungrin]

Why would you ever run 2 Marauders? Thats bad. 2 Slayers to keep up Shattered limbs but 2 Marauders? Why. Lol.

Ask SY and Aluba Shrimp, two of the best destro builds to every play on BL why they ran 2 marauders. Because Marauders were freakin OP son.

Also, I don't see a counter-argument. I figured we were going to have a discussion, not a troll-fest. I mean I pointed out exactly why Maras were overall better DPS than WL's, choppas/slayers, or WE's/WH's. WE's and choppas are just not survivable enough, and Marauder's could hit like trucks and are still insanely survivable. Considering every slayer ran full WS, going monstro significantly gimped the slayer's damage on their pushes.

I mean go on, I'd rather have a discussion than someone to just say "lol that's bad tho" and give no counter to what I've said.

A full dps marauder is not going to hit like a truck *cough slayer cough* what makes you think a monstro marauder is. You really don't know what you're talking about. Choppa not survivable enough, what? A choppa can control his rage. It is very tanky when guarded. It will out dps marauder. Stop, you're playing the most powerful mdps and dps in general.

I said a monstro marauder will switch stances to stave off the damage of the slayer on the push, which is when the most burst comes. Clearly, no marauder would stay in one stance. In our fight with TFC, we farmed the choppa, the marauder was a much, much harder kill, because like I said, monstro ignores armor pen. Also, I'm playing a SW, just because I happen to play a slayer doesn't mean I play it all the time. Actually, last time I even took the slayer out was about a week ago for 1 scenario.

Like I said, I know what I'm talking about, now it's coming down to "blah blah blah, you don't know anything, and here's no proof."

[Bozzax]

3. You simply don't understand Pack Hunting, or auto attacks apparently. Saying that swinging a 2h with a 50% increase in AA speed is equivilant to dual wielding shows that you clearly don't understand the mechanics.

Yep or how good AA is compared to crits when all slot TB

[Ungrin]

Now, let's compare WL's to Marauders:

Marauder's Cookie cutter build:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=mar ... 7:;0:0:0:0:

One could also make an argument to change out Piercing Bite for Brute Force, others would say you get capped on strength very easily on marauder and so Brute Force is unneeded and could be switched out for Piercing Bite. Regardless, that's usually the spec people played, and pumped up their WS for their AA's to hit really hard.

This build Usually means that the person ran around in Savagery, Debuffed their opponent, quickly switched to Brutality, and executed. This was seen mostly on Badlands as the EU server was heavily defensive and most groups ran and kited instead of fought toe-to-toe like we did on the NA server.

The White Lion's build:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=wl; ... 8:;0:0:0:0:

As well as this, obviously, others ran similar to slightly different build, but to build for optimum damage this is what people usually ran. Lednail ran full strength because her reasoning was "I don't attack tanks." while someone like Kymix, he can correct me if I'm wrong, ran higher WS because he liked his AA's to get through more armor on all his victims.

I will bold which tactic wins in each case:
This means that:

Marauder:
1. Growing Instability - 50% Crit Tactic - Who wouldn't love this. Doesn't need a pet for it. This wins.
2. Piercing Bite - 50% armor penetration - Wow, talk about free stats... This could be subbed for Brute Force, but seeing as how easily the Marauder can hit soft cap on his strength, there's really no reason to run Brute Force. This wins outright.
3. Flanking - 15% damage buff (from rear or sides) - Both careers run this. Tie.
4. Feeding on Fear - 20% crit tactic - Was bugged on live, still worth taking on RoR. This wins.

White Lion:
1. Pack Synergy - 50% Crit Tactic - Great tactic. Too bad you need a pet active for it. Pet dies, huge loss to DPS.
2. Pack Hunting - This brought your AA speed in line with the marauder (who dual wielded.) This means the marauder did not have to spec for the speed of his AA's while the WL had to spec to just be as fast as the marauder.
3. Flanking - 15% damage buff (from rear or sides) - Both careers run this. Tie.
4. Brute Force - Main stat tactic - Needed for WL as he has no Piercing bite tactic

The marauder although maybe not as mobile as the WL, doesn't need to be. It can pull. This pull is also not based on the pet so the only chance for it to fail comes from either a disrupt (which while possible is still less than the pet dying when the WL goes for the pull). This means that the Marauder can pull people TO him rather than put himself into harms way. This is a massive advantage.

The marauder also gets the melee debuff, wherein the melee gets hurt everytime they attack the marauder.
The marauder also gets a disarm, while the WL gets one as well, it's based on the pet.
The marauder also gets an interrupt, non-specced and not on a pet, this means the WL must have a pet out AND must spec for the interrupt. Marauder trounces the WL yet again.

I can go on, it's just pointless. You get the idea.

It isn't pointless, and I do get the idea, you are making a typical straw man argument. The only one making "troll/bait" arguments is you! What a joke.

I have specifically stated, numerous times, that I fully believe that WL's need buffs to be on par with Marauders overall. So your argument, isn't even particularly relevant, in fact, it is nothing because you are literally arguing against a viewpoint that nobody ever took.

Anyway, to fix some of the issues in your argument:

1. Piercing Bite is a 50% armor penetration tactic on specific (mutation req only) attacks. That being said it is a great tactic still, depending on your build.

2. Growing Instability used to be terrible. In finally, right before WAR died, got buffed to its current state. That being said, the WL tactic should be de-linked from the pet. Also good to note, GI is specced at 7 points, whilst the WL tactic is core.

3. You simply don't understand Pack Hunting, or auto attacks apparently. Saying that swinging a 2h with a 50% increase in AA speed is equivilant to dual wielding shows that you clearly don't understand the mechanics.

4. Yes, the Marauder pull is way better. How is that relevant to talking about burst damage. This is why you are making a strawman argument. The same goes for the rest of your points.

You simply are not very good at debating. You need to work on your reading comprehension skills, and try not to make so many logical fallacies. As I have specifically stated, that WL's need a rework and a buff, and that I never stated, they were overall as good or comparable to Marauders. Which unfortunately, seems to be the crux of your argument.

The point we were directly arguing, was burst damage. I can explain to you, how WL burst is clearly greater than Marauders burst, but after systematically reading your posts in this thread, I have the feeling that you are not open to debate whatsoever. You have already made up your mind based on questionable analytical skills, and attempting to educate you, will be a grand waste of time.

That being said, if you would like to continue the actual argument instead of creating a strawman, I would be more than happy to debate WL vs Marauder burst.

If we're talking about actual in-game burst, then you know the Marauder is better just based on how the game works. The marauder can start killing you before the WL ever reaches the ground from a pull. We're talking about real game, no paper theory.

This is how I remember a scenario in an oRVR lake happening. A WL would get pulled by a marauder, into the marauders group. While the WL was still in the air, the group would KD the WL and kill it before it ever reached the ground. Rinse and repeat. Save for the 1/10 chance that the pull would not go off (oh well, just either have the other mara pull or wait for CD) and there was no consequence to a failed pull.

We can talk about paper damage and paper burst all day but at the end of the day this is how it will go in game. Marauder pulls, group KD's and kills before the opponent ever has a chance to do anything. God forbid it happens to anything less mobile than a WL who would be fortunate enough to pounce to something (maybe) that was already pushed up.

3. You simply don't understand Pack Hunting, or auto attacks apparently. Saying that swinging a 2h with a 50% increase in AA speed is equivilant to dual wielding shows that you clearly don't understand the mechanics.

Yep or how good AA is compared to crits when all slot TB

We're talking about RoR, which will not have TB. We can talk about RR80 and all that, but we also have to keep in mind that TB is out of the question at this point.

[Euan]

Weird how in your situations Marauders can switch stances but Slayers/Choppas can't release the rage making them oh so squishy.


SW is OP in T2 just so you know.

[Ungrin]

Weird how in your situations Marauders can switch stances but Slayers/Choppas can't release the rage making them oh so squishy.


SW is OP in T2 just so you know.

I've been killed by foof enough times to tell you that's clearly not true. When they fixed the melee bug, melee has been more than capable enough to catch up to a SW with no PD tactic.

[foof]

I said a monstro marauder will switch stances to stave off the damage of the slayer on the push, which is when the most burst comes. Clearly, no marauder would stay in one stance. In our fight with TFC, we farmed the choppa, the marauder was a much, much harder kill, because like I said, monstro ignores armor pen. Also, I'm playing a SW, just because I happen to play a slayer doesn't mean I play it all the time. Actually, last time I even took the slayer out was about a week ago for 1 scenario.

Like I said, I know what I'm talking about, now it's coming down to "blah blah blah, you don't know anything, and here's no proof."

If a Marauder is a Monstro, he has terrible debuffs and damage and is really only acting like a damage sponge. Target someone else until he switches so he can actually do something besides absorb damage, then CC and burst.

You can't argue about Marauders without understanding the fundamentals of the mechanic, which you should because you clearly play a SW.

Also, the Marauder has way less damage than the Choppa. I don't see why you think a class shouldn't have greater survivability when it has worse DPS, when its a DPS archetype.

And these comments "I know what I am talking about, blah blah", are just showing how arrogant you are acting. Nearly everyone on this board is former WAR player, most of us have a general understanding of what we are talking about. You are not a special case. Just repeating "I know what I'm talking about", without offering compelling arguments is yet another logical fallacy you are once again making.