Nerf WH/WE into the ground

[rorswar]

Spoiler:

Thanks for proving my point.

I mentioned DPS RP specifically because it's one of the few matchups my build struggles with.

My response wasn't "nerf DPS RP."

My response was "adapt, choose your fights, and play around the matchup."

If more people approached WE/WH/WL/AM/ETC the same way instead of immediately demanding changes, we'd probably have fewer balance threads.

Thanks for proving my point as well.

It’s easy to adapt when you play one of the few OP classes. It’s like billionaires saying young people should eat less avocado toast.

Oh and your response wasn’t “nerf DPS RP”? …is this you:

Remove ability to swap between heal and dps spec on the fly.

Oh look, you want to nerf SW as well:

KD is fine as it is..
IMO the perm move speed buff from guerilla tactics does need a slight nerf though.. Perhaps have it trigger on a 10-15 second cooldown instead of 5 sec.

How about that adapt mentality of yours? At least you score high on hypocrisy.

So your big gotcha is that over multiple years I've occasionally suggested balance changes?

Congratulations, you've successfully discovered that I participate in balance discussions on a balance forum.

The question isn't whether balance changes should ever happen.

The question is whether every time someone loses a matchup the answer is immediately "nerf it."

In the example you quoted, my answer was literally the opposite:

"Adapt your playstyle."

Which is especially relevant considering we're currently in a thread called "Nerf WE/WH into the ground."

I openly acknowledged a matchup my build struggles with and my conclusion wasn't "nerf DPS RP into the ground." It was "adapt, choose your fights, and play around the matchup."

You spent more effort digging through years of my post history than addressing that argument.

Ironically, the fact that you had to leave the actual discussion and go archaeology through old posts suggests you couldn't find much wrong with the point being made here.

Give it a rest.

You said “adapt” whilst playing a broken class that easily lets you adapt.
You said you didn’t ask for nerfs, yet you did.

If by suggesting balance changes you mention nerfs to classes you struggle with (DPS RP) or struggled with (Skirmish SW before you got double pounce), then do us all a favour and also see how broken WE is and suggest balance changes to that, rather than relentlessly defending it.

It’s ok to call for nerfs to other classes, but not your own?

Hypocrisy 101

[Avanos]

Spoiler:

Thanks for proving my point as well.

It’s easy to adapt when you play one of the few OP classes. It’s like billionaires saying young people should eat less avocado toast.

Oh and your response wasn’t “nerf DPS RP”? …is this you:





Oh look, you want to nerf SW as well:





How about that adapt mentality of yours? At least you score high on hypocrisy.

So your big gotcha is that over multiple years I've occasionally suggested balance changes?

Congratulations, you've successfully discovered that I participate in balance discussions on a balance forum.

The question isn't whether balance changes should ever happen.

The question is whether every time someone loses a matchup the answer is immediately "nerf it."

In the example you quoted, my answer was literally the opposite:

"Adapt your playstyle."

Which is especially relevant considering we're currently in a thread called "Nerf WE/WH into the ground."

I openly acknowledged a matchup my build struggles with and my conclusion wasn't "nerf DPS RP into the ground." It was "adapt, choose your fights, and play around the matchup."

You spent more effort digging through years of my post history than addressing that argument.

Ironically, the fact that you had to leave the actual discussion and go archaeology through old posts suggests you couldn't find much wrong with the point being made here.

Give it a rest.

You said “adapt” whilst playing a broken class that easily lets you adapt.
You said you didn’t ask for nerfs, yet you did.

If by suggesting balance changes you mention nerfs to classes you struggle with (DPS RP) or struggled with (Skirmish SW before you got double pounce), then do us all a favour and also see how broken WE is and suggest balance changes to that, rather than relentlessly defending it.

It’s ok to call for nerfs to other classes, but not your own?

Hypocrisy 101

Just because I want to make you happy.

I'll concede.

Now, how would you nerf WE/WH into the ground?

[tjalfe]

Not sure, not clever enough for that. I love this game but find it really toxic how low pop zones are basically closed for order when some we's turn up. I imagine it's the same for des facing wh's?

So I have a controversial suggestion. As a trial deny we/wh entering rvr for 2 weeks and then the players could have a poll afterwards to see if the community would want them back.

[salazarn]

Not sure, not clever enough for that. I love this game but find it really toxic how low pop zones are basically closed for order when some we's turn up. I imagine it's the same for des facing wh's?

So I have a controversial suggestion. As a trial deny we/wh entering rvr for 2 weeks and then the players could have a poll afterwards to see if the community would want them back.

I literally thought that was just me. I like small fights in 0-9 zones but its either 2v1 dps welfs or the extra tryhard regen welfs.

[eigner93]

Spoiler:

So your big gotcha is that over multiple years I've occasionally suggested balance changes?

Congratulations, you've successfully discovered that I participate in balance discussions on a balance forum.

The question isn't whether balance changes should ever happen.

The question is whether every time someone loses a matchup the answer is immediately "nerf it."

In the example you quoted, my answer was literally the opposite:

"Adapt your playstyle."

Which is especially relevant considering we're currently in a thread called "Nerf WE/WH into the ground."

I openly acknowledged a matchup my build struggles with and my conclusion wasn't "nerf DPS RP into the ground." It was "adapt, choose your fights, and play around the matchup."

You spent more effort digging through years of my post history than addressing that argument.

Ironically, the fact that you had to leave the actual discussion and go archaeology through old posts suggests you couldn't find much wrong with the point being made here.

Give it a rest.

You said “adapt” whilst playing a broken class that easily lets you adapt.
You said you didn’t ask for nerfs, yet you did.

If by suggesting balance changes you mention nerfs to classes you struggle with (DPS RP) or struggled with (Skirmish SW before you got double pounce), then do us all a favour and also see how broken WE is and suggest balance changes to that, rather than relentlessly defending it.

It’s ok to call for nerfs to other classes, but not your own?

Hypocrisy 101

Just because I want to make you happy.

I'll concede.

Now, how would you nerf WE/WH into the ground?

Let me chip in.

Bring Absorb tactic in line with the other dps classes.

Reduce base damage of all corporeal dots and witchbrew by a lot, but increase the strength multiplier to even it up or hell make it even more. To make sure tank wes dont do so much damage and to force them to use Strength talis and renown like other classes have to.
Make witchbrew to last 20 seconds only.

Remove the cd reset on pounce on stealth.

[Shieldslam]

If you played a WE, you'd know how much they die. Why do ya think they changed banner rez to 10 minutes? Because WEs and WHs die a lot.

Unfortunately none of the people complaining know how to utilize their cc to win. There are some great players who utilize it to control a fight or get out.. I cant count the times I have people dump all their cc at once. Absolutely gold comedy. Literally I'll have both up on cctv. It is funny like your first move was to hit me with both of your cc. Now you have none and when you blow your cc and die, ya run to the forums crying. That's a general account of most players.

If the killboard showed deaths. You would all be typing that WEs and WHs need a buff

Maybe it's a skill issue on your end then? It absolutely is possible to rarely die on stealthers if you pick your fights properly, I've done so myself and there are others who have done the same. I don't know the reasoning behind the banner rez change but I HIGHLY doubt it's specifically for WH/WE. Also, killboard does show deaths.

It's ironic you're talking about skill, how to use abilities and navigate fights meanwhile I got replays 2vs1'ing (2x WE) you on full crit low geared WL - and before you take that as an argument to "but WE can die", no that's a skill issue as you like to say. We even have an inside joke going about how you're coincidentally never alone, "gold comedy" indeed. To me it's quite clear that those defending WE (especially def build) are quite literally carried by it and afraid of losing their toys, their gameplay speaks for itself.

[Shogun4138]

If you played a WE, you'd know how much they die. Why do ya think they changed banner rez to 10 minutes? Because WEs and WHs die a lot.

Unfortunately none of the people complaining know how to utilize their cc to win. There are some great players who utilize it to control a fight or get out.. I cant count the times I have people dump all their cc at once. Absolutely gold comedy. Literally I'll have both up on cctv. It is funny like your first move was to hit me with both of your cc. Now you have none and when you blow your cc and die, ya run to the forums crying. That's a general account of most players.

If the killboard showed deaths. You would all be typing that WEs and WHs need a buff

Maybe it's a skill issue on your end then? It absolutely is possible to rarely die on stealthers if you pick your fights properly, I've done so myself and there are others who have done the same. I don't know the reasoning behind the banner rez change but I HIGHLY doubt it's specifically for WH/WE. Also, killboard does show deaths.

It's ironic you're talking about skill, how to use abilities and navigate fights meanwhile I got replays 2vs1'ing (2x WE) you on full crit low geared WL - and before you take that as an argument to "but WE can die", no that's a skill issue as you like to say. We even have an inside joke going about how you're coincidentally never alone, "gold comedy" indeed. To me it's quite clear that those defending WE (especially def build) are quite literally carried by it and afraid of losing their toys, their gameplay speaks for itself.

Oh. I die. I make mistakes. But I don't cry about it. I dust off and give it another go. And yes. I have friends I game with. So because I play a WE I'm supposed to not group with guildies? That's just dumb.

FYI, ive never played a witch brew tank spec. And it's good to see you and your friends know me and apparently talk about my character because haters or fans, I love them all.

Here's a gold metal for your issues
If it makes you feel better, baby
Does it feel better, baby?
Mental gymnastics like an athlete
Ya know, I gotta give you first place
So, congratulations for being a victim
Be the highest on the podium,

[Avanos]

Just because I want to make you happy.

I'll concede.

Now, how would you nerf WE/WH into the ground?

Let me chip in.

Bring Absorb tactic in line with the other dps classes.

Reduce base damage of all corporeal dots and witchbrew by a lot, but increase the strength multiplier to even it up or hell make it even more. To make sure tank wes dont do so much damage and to force them to use Strength talis and renown like other classes have to.
Make witchbrew to last 20 seconds only.

Remove the cd reset on pounce on stealth.

I'd love to have the absorb tactic of chosen/kotbs or WH, vs the current WE one. Please yes. I need to take critical damage for the current to proc (which means upwards of 1500+ damage in order to get a 600 absorb.

Corp dots are already relatively low, especially on a Defensive Build WE. STR glass cannon WE's dont normally resort to dots.
Witchbrew damage on defensive wes is already limited to around 250-300 after target defense. How much lower do you propose?
Witchbrew lasting 20 sec isn't a problem, make it so!

CD reset on pounce is OK.
But then I think there should be a speed boost under middle tree.
Pounce is a lesser version of the old speed boost.

[eigner93]

Just because I want to make you happy.

I'll concede.

Now, how would you nerf WE/WH into the ground?

Let me chip in.

Bring Absorb tactic in line with the other dps classes.

Reduce base damage of all corporeal dots and witchbrew by a lot, but increase the strength multiplier to even it up or hell make it even more. To make sure tank wes dont do so much damage and to force them to use Strength talis and renown like other classes have to.
Make witchbrew to last 20 seconds only.

Remove the cd reset on pounce on stealth.

I'd love to have the absorb tactic of chosen/kotbs or WH, vs the current WE one. Please yes. I need to take critical damage for the current to proc (which means upwards of 1500+ damage in order to get a 600 absorb.

Corp dots are already relatively low, especially on a Defensive Build WE. STR glass cannon WE's dont normally resort to dots.
Witchbrew damage on defensive wes is already limited to around 250-300 after target defense. How much lower do you propose?
Witchbrew lasting 20 sec isn't a problem, make it so!

CD reset on pounce is OK.
But then I think there should be a speed boost under middle tree.
Pounce is a lesser version of the old speed boost.

I forgot these. Make the stagger defendable or shorter to 3-4 second.
Move heart render toxin to carnage.

I am sorry, but a defensive we still deals insane amount of hard to mitigatable damage. That is why i would want to lower the base damage so they have to invest to some Str instead of even more defensives.

Sure, swap elixir of shadows with elixir of insane powers.

[lumpi33]

Let me chip in.

Bring Absorb tactic in line with the other dps classes.

Reduce base damage of all corporeal dots and witchbrew by a lot, but increase the strength multiplier to even it up or hell make it even more. To make sure tank wes dont do so much damage and to force them to use Strength talis and renown like other classes have to.
Make witchbrew to last 20 seconds only.

Remove the cd reset on pounce on stealth.

I'd love to have the absorb tactic of chosen/kotbs or WH, vs the current WE one. Please yes. I need to take critical damage for the current to proc (which means upwards of 1500+ damage in order to get a 600 absorb.

Corp dots are already relatively low, especially on a Defensive Build WE. STR glass cannon WE's dont normally resort to dots.
Witchbrew damage on defensive wes is already limited to around 250-300 after target defense. How much lower do you propose?
Witchbrew lasting 20 sec isn't a problem, make it so!

CD reset on pounce is OK.
But then I think there should be a speed boost under middle tree.
Pounce is a lesser version of the old speed boost.

I forgot these. Make the stagger defendable or shorter to 3-4 second.
Move heart render toxin to carnage.

I am sorry, but a defensive we still deals insane amount of hard to mitigatable damage. That is why i would want to lower the base damage so they have to invest to some Str instead of even more defensives.

Sure, swap elixir of shadows with elixir of insane powers.

That's some decent suggestions.

I'm adding:
- Bring WE m2 in line with other mdps. Reduce the 1200 damage to 40ft all in front like it is for mara.
- Their mechanic points should fade faster, like it is for BWs/Sorcs. They should not be able to gain them on pve mobs, hold them for a long time then unload on a player.
- Remove the pounce again. It breaks all the balance between rdps and WEs in small scale. With their break root, Elixir of the Cauldron, m1 dodge, instant disappears, dagger snare, damage on movement dot, 3s kd, choosing when to open from stealth and stagger they have more than enough tools to fight ranged. Give them back the range on finishers. That would be equal to WH. They don't have pounce either and destro has the better kiting classes.
- Opening from stealth and immediately follow by 3s kd is not balanced. It gives targets no chance to react. That's at least 4-5 seconds and 6-8k damage where you can't do nothing. There needs to be a possibility to get a detaunt in for a good player before the kd comes.
- Their 150 debuffs are really strong.