Return of Reckoning

I dont find Shamans to be OP, they are only scary in 1v1 encounters but if you have a competent healer their damage wont really kill just pressure. I bet most shaman frustration comes from people trying to go somewhere alone and getting ganked by them. I dont know how the Run away tactic works but if you can still use abilities while still having the speed proc, then that must be pretty sweet. But if you nerfed that tactic so the speed would end when you use an ability would SH and Shaman still use it?

Caduceus wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:13 am

Sulorie wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:50 am

When this 1vs1 isn't small scale for you, then you significantly missed to explain, how said dot based dps healers kill anyone in any bigger sized grp setup e.g. up to 6man, when you have heal and tank.

By dishing out a level of single-target DPS that is comparable to dedicated DPS classes, while not having to make any of the sacrifices they do, and while also enjoying a great amount of utility and lifetap healing. This is what I've argued throughout this thread.

Thats the thing you are wrong about. And a few ppl already tried to explain to you why, but they all bring up strawmen-arguments, right? (and yes, I would to take your offer and ask you to explain to me what a strawmen argument is, executed on one of my responses to you in this thread).
There are countless of videos available where you can watch group fights. Very rarely you will see an AM/Shaman in there. And as I already said to you, the majority opinion is mdps>rdps.

But I assume you are not the guy that is convinced by reality and more a theorycrafting guy:
AM/Shaman neither have the burst of BW/Sorc, nor have they a 2400 morale damage attack. The offensive CC of SW/SH is vastly superior to AM/Shaman, which both have almost none (you can argue with shaman m1, but thats a stretch).
You throw out some wild assumptions and when someone try to nail you down on them, your response is "strawmen, strawmen, strawmen". This is childish.

Sulorie wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:30 am

Their dps is nowhere near comparable to any dedicated dps class. Then you answer, they might be a bit lower but they can heal themselves. The thing is, the others don't have to heal themselves, because there are healers in group to do the job.

I disagree. Their damage is great. Not the best, but fantastic considering their other strengths. When we discuss the specifics of small-scale, one needs to take into account what classes AM/Shaman can pair up with, and not just from a "AM/Shaman vs. healer/tank/dps" setup.

I can speak from personal experience here, in that I participated in the first season of 6v6 ranked as SM in a 3 AM setup. There's no doubt in my mind that such setups are powerful.

Sulorie wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:30 am
Their own healing isn't saving them in any encounter bigger than 1vs1, if the enemies know what to do.

As noted before, 'any encounter bigger than 1v1' also includes allies that know what to do, so this cannot be simplified in the manner which you suggest.

Sulorie wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:30 am

For a single gcd, dots deal significantly more dmg than any other skill, therefore the much higher efficiency in no-heal environments. This is another reason, why they can pump up numbers in scenario and look good on scoreboard.

How does this relate to AM's Transfer Force (Shaman's Bleed Fer' Me is comparable, I would assume), which, as I have sought to point out, is arguably one of the strongest spells in game. It is easily able to deal upwards of 2k damage for the cost of one GCD, while also healing 150% of that damage, resulting in a delta of 5k damage points.

For the sake of argument, let's compare that to some Sorc DoTs (at high rr):
- Chillwind; ~800 - 900 damage.
- Ice Spikes; ~1.3k - 1.4k damage, at 65ft.
- Absorb Vitality; 1.0k - 1.1.k damage, healing 100% of damage, resulting in a delta of 2k damage points. 13 point tactic.

None of these even scratch the effectiveness of Transfer Force. In fact, all three combine into a delta of 4.3k damage points, which is still less than a single Transfer Force.

And this is just a simple comparison of only one of the many tools AM/Shaman have at their disposal.

Arbich wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:59 am

(and yes, I would to take your offer and ask you to explain to me what a strawmen argument is, executed on one of my responses to you in this thread).

A straw man (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

- Wikipedia

Arbich wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:17 pm

You tried to bring "arguments" over multiple pages now, but didn´t explain your premise (rdps > mdps). I don´t think you can, which means everyone can put your whole "argumentation" into the bin.

Arbich wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:17 pm

In essence your proposals do run under the premise that rdps>mdps.

Caduceus wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:14 pm

Who are you talking to? I cannot be me, because that was never my premise.

Caduceus wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:04 pm
How does this relate to AM's Transfer Force (Shaman's Bleed Fer' Me is comparable, I would assume), which, as I have sought to point out, is arguably one of the strongest spells in game. It is easily able to deal upwards of 2k damage for the cost of one GCD, while also healing 150% of that damage, resulting in a delta of 5k damage points.

For the sake of argument, let's compare that to some Sorc DoTs (at high rr):
- Chillwind; ~800 - 900 damage.
- Ice Spikes; ~1.3k - 1.4k damage, at 65ft.
- Absorb Vitality; 1.0k - 1.1.k damage, healing 100% of damage, resulting in a delta of 2k damage points. 13 point tactic.

None of these even scratch the effectiveness of Transfer Force. In fact, all three combine into a delta of 4.3k damage points, which is still less than a single Transfer Force.

And this is just a simple comparison of only one of the many tools AM/Shaman have at their disposal.

Transfer Force is a 24 seconds dot. You yourself set the premise thats in group play and enemies and allies know what to do (please not another strawman strike here ). Bleed fer me is the same spell. If you are nit-picking you can actually say that the shaman version is slightly superior (I let you find out why).
The thing is, in a small scale setting the healers will cleanse whenever possible. And as you might know, chillwind has a nice second effect and no cooldown, transfer force has.

Your explanation of a strawman argument is a joke, right?

Arbich wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:50 pm

Transfer Force is a 24 seconds dot. You yourself set the premise thats in group play and enemies and allies know what to do (please not another strawman strike here ). Bleed fer me is the same spell. If you are nit-picking you can actually say that the shaman version is slightly superior (I let you find out why).
The thing is, in a small scale setting the healers will cleanse whenever possible. And as you might know, chillwind has a nice second effect and no cooldown, transfer force has.

None of this is any justification for why AM/Shaman should have such a powerful DoT.

Mind you, this is only one of the many options AM/Shaman get.

And Chillwind does not have any secondary effects by default, except for proccing Backlash, but I'm not sure how that would help your case.

Arbich wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:50 pm

Your explanation of a strawman argument is a joke, right?

An explanation is what you asked for, and an explanation is what you got.

I'm sure it must be confrontational to have it all spelled out infront of you like that.

Caduceus wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:04 pm I can speak from personal experience here, in that I participated in the first season of 6v6 ranked as SM in a 3 AM setup. There's no doubt in my mind that such setups are powerful.

That is a **** comp more or less a guaranteed loose vs anything semi decent

You Dragonfang?

Bozzax wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:23 pm

Caduceus wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:04 pm I can speak from personal experience here, in that I participated in the first season of 6v6 ranked as SM in a 3 AM setup. There's no doubt in my mind that such setups are powerful.

That is a **** comp more or less a guaranteed loose vs anything semi decent

You Dragonfang?

Then I would understand, why the thread is still going. ;^)

Mm been in 3x shmy setups as well and won but not bc we were goodIt

It a fckn nightmare if you dont have a dok or a zele as foundation for heals in ranked