Return of Reckoning

Flavorburst wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:12 pm Why do people keep thinking that this change greatly impacts dps doks in solo queue?

shrug

retekelek wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:20 pm

porter1234 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:57 pm

retekelek wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:46 pm


Hey, i thought ballancing means nerf/buff something if its over / under performing. For this announced change, aint see that consideration.

Where is the a big ballance problem whit the currant state of that 2 class aoe spec perfom in wb-s? Because a lot premade guild wb-s used 1 of them in their setup, aint think they were complaining about it. Also a lot preamde wb-s aint used that, and aint saw them complaining about it, if its too op, otherwise they would also use them, if it would be a big upperhand. So seems this change lack of needness. Just pushing game toward less variations and other problems that people already explained in this thread about that change.

Guild organised wb-s whit voice communication and consistent players base that know each other play style and whit taticali experinced wb leaders will always crush random/pug wb-s regardless aoe healdebuff classes exist or not.

This change should have been run through consideration before implementing, for its needness. i dont see a real point for doing it, rather than make the game less many-sided on WB setups. Also ruining those few players game, those grinded out pve gear + invader / sc weapons and rr70+ to do that role properly.

i mean 2(mabye 3?) destro wbs ran a zdps and 1(mabye 2?) ran a dps rp, so its being nerfed because a possible total of 5 players in the whole server are playin this build/class in wb scale, but lets see how its gonna be nerfed 1st, mabye proc chance is just less and its still viable or if its made to only proc on single target skills guess those 5 op players gonna reroll

ok mabye u miss understood the core of my post, that a nerf / buff should come for ballance if it has a purpose. Like this nerf should be implemented becuase this class so op that everyone using it in any wb setup. u also just higlighted that its not the case.

This was a simple common sense adjustment. If the dok tactic was losing its aoe capability, the rp/z tactics which are structured exactly the same would be losing them as well.

Makes no sense ... dot procs sure but dd ????

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:41 pm

retekelek wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:20 pm

porter1234 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:57 pm

i mean 2(mabye 3?) destro wbs ran a zdps and 1(mabye 2?) ran a dps rp, so its being nerfed because a possible total of 5 players in the whole server are playin this build/class in wb scale, but lets see how its gonna be nerfed 1st, mabye proc chance is just less and its still viable or if its made to only proc on single target skills guess those 5 op players gonna reroll

ok mabye u miss understood the core of my post, that a nerf / buff should come for ballance if it has a purpose. Like this nerf should be implemented becuase this class so op that everyone using it in any wb setup. u also just higlighted that its not the case.

This was a simple common sense adjustment. If the dok tactic was losing its aoe capability, the rp/z tactics which are structured exactly the same would be losing them as well.

I see, but the dok tatic losed aoe capability for make that class less viable because its in the top of the rankeds(and for that its seems or they overperform = need a nerfing), if i know it right.
My problem whit this thought process is that u planning to nerf 2 other class that clearly dont need the nerf, becuse they not topping in solo rankeds whit dps spec (they can"t even join for CW as dps spec only heal whit the current state of the que system) and also aint overperforming in the orvr/wb scale of game.
If it would be a favored class by a lot and would be in the meta of 6man or any other game mode, than a nerfing for em would be legit and probably needed.
I hope u guys reconsider this before implementing just becuase dok cant have it than make other 2 chars offspec completly useless too.

Probably isnt much to be said in this thread that hasn't already been said. Just seems knee jerk and flawed to remove the niche from a niche spec just to be in line with a nerf that was made to some other class. Especially when you consider there are still going to be AoE heal Debuffs in the game.

Its Normal [Essence Lash] and [Devour Essence] dont apply the [Curse of Khaine] ? Because i read "triggers off of direct damage abilities"

DPS DoK: Curse of Khaine now only triggers off of direct damage abilities or autoattacks.

So its a bug ???? or need a report ?

Its Normal [Essence Lash] and [Devour Essence] dont apply the [Curse of Khaine] ? Because i read "triggers off of direct damage abilities"

DPS DoK: Curse of Khaine now only triggers off of direct damage abilities or autoattacks.

So its a part of the nerf ???? or its a bug and need a report ?

Spotted issue: DPS dok seemes to bring too much in 6v6 CW with easy solo-delivery aoe healdebuff from a far distance as a melee healer (amongst lifetaps, clensing, tiny selfsustain and what not) Fair enough. The Aoe HD is the target for now.

Step1: limmit the DPS dok aoe healdebuff, still having good ways of applying it to singletarget. Nothing really changes in 6v6 (according to DPS doks in this topic)

Step2: Randomly finding out that DPS runepriest and Zealot have the exact same tactic, despite having two completly different brackets of pvp and not seeing play in 6v6. And these two classes have to rely on a very specific partner-class to get an affective way of applying their aoe HD

Step: Decide to nerf all 3 classes with no regard for how step2 will now kill 1/3 of the affected 3 careers for a niece corerole for largescale. Where as the main target of the DPS dok in smallscale will still do just fine.

May I suggest that DE and Rune of Battle are the targets here, if Rune of Battle is deemed to be the reason why Zealot and RP is now getting affected by this nerf too. Instead of using the wide nerf-paintbrush and affecting all directdamage aoe.
Right now two whole additional careers are as risk of losing their warband roles outside of spamming groupheals from a bush, and meanwhile the DPS dok will just brush it off in CW and continue to lifetap away on lion pets and be unaffected by these healdebuffs nerfs originally directed towards him.

Disclaimer: I main a DoK and would like more viable things to do than just heal 24/7, not less things.

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:41 pmThis was a simple common sense adjustment. If the dok tactic was losing its aoe capability, the rp/z tactics which are structured exactly the same would be losing them as well.

Respectfully I completely disageee for many, many reasons

1) "If the dok tactic was losing its aoe capability, the rp/z tactics which are structured exactly the same would be losing them as well"

The tactics are not structured the same.

According to posts in this thread (I don't know the full details of the DoK's tactic myself) the DoK's tactic triggered on single target (ST) and AoE crits including AoE DoT crits. The Zealot/RP tactics do not trigger on DoTs so already they are not "structured exactly the same". In addition, the patch notes said that the DoK's tactic would now only trigger on direct damage (DD can be ST or AoE) which would actually be a case of bringing the DoK's tactic in like with the Zealot/RP and not the other way around. Then in this thread it seems the plan was to both remove the DoTs triggering the DoK's tactic AND to remove direct damage AoEs from triggering it - even though that wasn't in the patch notes - meaning you're changing a tactic that did more than the Zealot/WP's one (why was it better?!?) to one that did less. Then finally, because someone asked, the Zealot/RP tactic got downgraded to the same level.

It doesn't appear that the team is on the same page as to what the intended DoK nerfs were supposed to be and what the capabilities of the Zealot/RP tactic were before nerfing them alongside it. Were AoE heal debuffing Zealots and Rune Priests actually a problem, or was the only problem the DoK?

2) It's not just about the tactic but how the classes perform as a whole, how easily it is for each class to apply the debuff, how much work that class gets done in addition to applying the debuff, the situations where it makes sense to take that class/build, etc. If this tactic was common to all healer archetypes then I would see the validity in changing it for all, but it just looks like it was a tactic that allowed the DoK to encroach on the sole viable non-healing role for Zealot/RP (as it triggered from DoTs it's actually better) and changing the DoK's tactic - and only the DoK's tactic - would stop this from happening. If the only two classes that had this tactic were just the DoK and Rune Priest making it mirrored on both sides but not on directly comparable classes then I could maybe see why the RP version might be touched but it's obvious the Zealot/RP are supposed to mirror each other with this tactic. I believe the Zealot tactic was buffed on RoR to match the duration of the RP's tactic to make their tactics exact mirrors. The questions are: why did a better version of the Zealot/RP tactic also end up on the DoK, does the DoK need it, and does there need to be a comparable single-target on-crit heal debuff added to an order class to mirror the DoK?

3) I don't see the sense in removing the only viable (and again, very niche) non-healing role the Zealot and RP could spec into for warband play because the DoK was overperforming in ranked scenarios. I would've thought that changing the DoK's tactic to only work on single target direct damage potentially opened up more of a unique role for the Zealot (and RP) in being the two classes with the potential (albeit with relative difficulty) to apply this kind of debuff more easily over a larger area.

I would love to know what viable non-healing roles there are for Zealots and RPs now this will be gone. Look at all of the changes and focus that been given to DoKs and WPs (they now have shields!! I've come back after a break and when I saw a WP block in a scenario I thought they had found a bugged item and nearly put it on the bug tracker before discovering the massive change to some of their trees). I'm hoping somewhere there are people on the team championing similar improvements to the Zealot/RP as this change is awful for those classes and there's nothing else being changed or given back to compensate.

I know this part is pure whinge but I'm going to repeat it from the DPS zealot buff thread anyway: "It's a shame that outside of it's core healing kit the Zealot has so many broken and/or lacklusture abilities which the devs haven't found much - if any - time to look at, but they managed to find the time to remove one of the few things that actually worked and had use."

4) If the plan was to remove the possibility of removing any kind of AoE heal debuff from the beginning then I would've expected a bigger conversation before the changes were made that made it clear what classes were changing and why rather than having Zealot/RP nerfs being causally announced in the middle of a DoK scenario thread. The DoK was the only class originally nerfed because it seems that it's the only class the development team thought was causing balance issues. It was only when someone pointed out in this thread that 2 other classes also had this tactic that it was decided to also give them the same treatment even though they function completely differently to the DoK. It's like the RP/Zealot collateral damage from a missile aimed at the DoK.



Please reconsider implementing the upcoming Zealot/RP changes. Thank you.

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:41 pm
This was a simple common sense adjustment.

No, it really wasn't. It was a completely unnecessary knee jerk reaction to attempt to justify a previous needless move... But hey, you'll crack on with it regardless so, meh.