Return of Reckoning

Maybe an issue is that the other specs are over performing, this would explain why the ambition set is so high

Acidic wrote:Maybe an issue is that the other specs are over performing, this would explain why the ambition set is so high

Off-topic answer:
Over-performing over what? Over BWs rdps? Or maybe over WL as melee dps?
I don’t know any groups that wouldn’t prefer any of those over SW in any spec.

daniilpb wrote:

Acidic wrote:Maybe an issue is that the other specs are over performing, this would explain why the ambition set is so high

Off-topic answer:
Over-performing over what? Over BWs rdps? Or maybe over WL as melee dps?
I don’t know any groups that wouldn’t prefer any of those over SW in any spec.

This is defiantly not off topic. The justification for buffing has been none use cos we have better tools.
This leaves two options open. Buff specific skills or look at the other tools as see if they are not too good. Both ways fix the players choosing differently.
Obviously this is not the way u want but it should be included in the view of the solution

anarchypark wrote:

lefze wrote: As for that last part, why do you want any spec to remain unfunctional? That first line is the big problem the class has, does it make any sense for it to remain in a state where rotations being impossible to get off is the balancing factor?

because SW have access to other ranges?
staying 1 stance should be less functional. else it create unbalance.
u want class functioning like 40BW + 20slayer? or 40mara + 20magus?

i prefer 30lvl/30lvl distribution. i'm fine with not best at either.
it's price i can pay to be everywhere like shadow, long/mid/short range, adapting situations.
i still believe 1 stance SW is liability and balance changes should not encourage 1 stance.

Scout was long range moving sniper who lacks killing power. ( target ran out of range or got close dangerously )

means Scout have to change it's range(stance) to kill. to Skirmish or Assault.
Scout in mid range should not function properly. Skirmish is there for reason.

i'm against Scout covering mid range.
and fester buff seems to me covering mid range for Scout.

I dunno what game you're playing, but jack-of-all-trades has never worked in any MMO environment outside of durp solo.

Simply put, ask yourself the question 'Why would i take a scout SW to a group?'. When you find yourself with 0 answers, then you'll realise the spec (not the class) could do with some finetuning - provided it doesn't inadvertently buff the other two trees.

Acidic wrote:

daniilpb wrote:

Acidic wrote:Maybe an issue is that the other specs are over performing, this would explain why the ambition set is so high

Off-topic answer:
Over-performing over what? Over BWs rdps? Or maybe over WL as melee dps?
I don’t know any groups that wouldn’t prefer any of those over SW in any spec.

This is defiantly not off topic. The justification for buffing has been none use cos we have better tools.
This leaves two options open. Buff specific skills or look at the other tools as see if they are not too good. Both ways fix the players choosing differently.
Obviously this is not the way u want but it should be included in the view of the solution

The logic is sound enough, quite litterally the idea behind balancing. But balancing a class based solely upon what the class itself can do without considering the opposition and at the same time using the WORST part of the class as a reference would never give good results.

As I mentioned earlier, removing powerful draw would definetly make scout relevant for the class, but would completely obliterate the class when looking at the other class options available. And currently scout in itself is not only lacking compared to the other two stances, but also when comparing to any other rdps (and possibly any class in general) that you can run. So obviously the choice is there, but is there any actual logical reason for scout to not be functional as a standalone spec? Is there any reason all the other stuff SW has should be nerfed to avoid buffing scout into functionality as a standalone spec?

Edit:

peterthepan3 wrote:Simply put, ask yourself the question 'Why would i take a scout SW to a group?'. When you find yourself with 0 answers, then you'll realise the spec (not the class) could do with some finetuning - provided it doesn't inadvertently buff the other two trees.

And tweaks to the proposal preventing this have already been suggested, which in essence is splitting the functionality of fester over 2 tactics, which litterally prevents a full specced assault/skirmish from getting a viable fester. In fact a change like this would not affect the other two specs at all, so the whole issue some people have with the class overall becoming too strong is non-existant.

lefze wrote:

Spoiler:

So I guess you didn't read the thread? For ranges of 30-40 either assault or skirmish performs better. Currently scout is ineffective at what you call "sniping" ranges, and there is no reason to run scout over skirmish even for sniping as skirmish has 98ft range and overall a MUCH better kit. Scout still lacks mobility and CC with the change. So basically unless Scout gets buffed as per something from the proposal, for it to become useful skirmish would have to get nerfed to only function at 65ft.

Scout has no place, and 1 second reduced cast time sure as hell won't make it outperform assault or skirmish "mid range".

i agree with issue. not agree with OP proposal.
my point is 'what if OP proposal happens.'

here is mid-range scenario.( u already dealt dmg in long range )

when ur target is 50% hp and approaching, would u change to 8pt Skirmish?
or stick with 13pt Scout, kiting/spamming instant arrows then 2sec FA or FTW.
what if target is 50% and running away. would u chase as 8pt Skirmish?
or stick with Scout, chasing/spamming instant arrows then 2sec FA or FTW.
now let's add some guard/supports. and pre-kiting and positioning.

in theory, 50% chance i may stick with Scout. risky but possible.
this is my concern.
Scout should put effort making fight long range again in that scenario.
not killing off target in second spec range.
i personally think 'change to 8pt Skirmish' should carry much more weight.
so i disagree with OP proposal.

but it gives more options to choose, that's good thing.
maybe i'm overthinking about range shifting.

lastly, SW mirror might get same thing. right?

peterthepan3 wrote: I dunno what game you're playing, but jack-of-all-trades has never worked in any MMO environment outside of durp solo.

Simply put, ask yourself the question 'Why would i take a scout SW to a group?'. When you find yourself with 0 answers, then you'll realise the spec (not the class) could do with some finetuning - provided it doesn't inadvertently buff the other two trees.

i guess we play 2 different games.
you play yours, i'll play mine.
this is how awesome RoR is. supporting various styles.

anyway, i'm not worry about which tree gets which skill.
it's about range. 1 range SW feels weird to me.
guess that's just me.

Scout doesn't work in any environment outside of durp/pug farm play.

anarchypark wrote:

lefze wrote:

Spoiler:

So I guess you didn't read the thread? For ranges of 30-40 either assault or skirmish performs better. Currently scout is ineffective at what you call "sniping" ranges, and there is no reason to run scout over skirmish even for sniping as skirmish has 98ft range and overall a MUCH better kit. Scout still lacks mobility and CC with the change. So basically unless Scout gets buffed as per something from the proposal, for it to become useful skirmish would have to get nerfed to only function at 65ft.

Scout has no place, and 1 second reduced cast time sure as hell won't make it outperform assault or skirmish "mid range".

i agree with issue. not agree with OP proposal.
my point is 'what if OP proposal happens.'

here is mid-range scenario.( u already dealt dmg in long range )

when ur target is 50% hp and approaching, would u change to 8pt Skirmish?
or stick with 13pt Scout, kiting/spamming instant arrows then 2sec FA or FTW.
what if target is 50% and running away. would u chase as 8pt Skirmish?
or stick with Scout, chasing/spamming instant arrows then 2sec FA or FTW.
now let's add some guard/supports. and pre-kiting and positioning.

in theory, 50% chance i may stick with Scout. risky but possible.
this is my concern.
Scout should put effort making fight long range again in that scenario.
not killing off target in second spec range.
i personally think 'change to 8pt Skirmish' should carry much more weight.
so i disagree with OP proposal.

but it gives more options to choose, that's good thing.
maybe i'm overthinking about range shifting.

lastly, SW mirror might get same thing. right?

I again fail to see a point here, or relevance. "Spamming" instacasts while waiting for an opportunity to FA is the ideal situation for the build imo, but right now it works way too seldom, so switching to skirmish is mandatory in most cases. And this in itself is an indication of something being wrong. Right now scout doesn't work at any range really, 1a or any other change here (except the outright damage buffs, if combined with 1a) is not gonna suddenly make all other specs trash. It's simply a matter of being functional at all.

Not sure I understand you right, but you are basically just listing stuff that makes (certain points) of OPs proposal and the thread as a whole valid, and a buff needed.

I don't see why anyone would not want the option to spec dirrefently. Right now there's two choices, skirmish for everything between melee and long range, and assault for everything between melee and decent range. Scout just doesn't work at any range, would it be so bad to enable the spec to function better/on par with skirmish at long range? I get that some people might not like the meta of their class changing, but that's not what this is about. As long as the change is limited to scout, and requires two tactics from the tree skirmish is completely untouched, and so is the "jack of all trades" bullshit that was mentioned.

And even though balance according to the rules is NOT based on whatever your mirror can do, why shouldn't squig also get a buff in the big shooting tree?

lefze wrote:

Spoiler:

I again fail to see a point here, or relevance. "Spamming" instacasts while waiting for an opportunity to FA is the ideal situation for the build imo, but right now it works way too seldom, so switching to skirmish is mandatory in most cases. And this in itself is an indication of something being wrong. Right now scout doesn't work at any range really, 1a or any other change here (except the outright damage buffs, if combined with 1a) is not gonna suddenly make all other specs trash. It's simply a matter of being functional at all.

Not sure I understand you right, but you are basically just listing stuff that makes (certain points) of OPs proposal and the thread as a whole valid, and a buff needed.

I don't see why anyone would not want the option to spec dirrefently. Right now there's two choices, skirmish for everything between melee and long range, and assault for everything between melee and decent range. Scout just doesn't work at any range, would it be so bad to enable the spec to function better/on par with skirmish at long range? I get that some people might not like the meta of their class changing, but that's not what this is about. As long as the change is limited to scout, and requires two tactics from the tree skirmish is completely untouched, and so is the "jack of all trades" bullshit that was mentioned.

And even though balance according to the rules is NOT based on whatever your mirror can do, why shouldn't squig also get a buff in the big shooting tree?

I agree Scout is not good.
I think this proposal lead to overpower Scout.
my theorycraft is example of overpower Scout if this proposal goes live.
overpowering it's own Skirmish in skirmish range.
yes, full scout should work better than half skirmish. but not even in the skirmish territory.
It hurts concept of stance dance which is class mechanic.
u remember when Skirmish was meta? that build worked too well in long range.
this proposal may cause same problem.
too good in mid range.
why go back to problem? for meta?

maybe Devs think melee <-> range is class mechanic then mashup scout/skirmish.
until that time, i'm still standing that class mechanic is long/mid/melee shift.
so range buff for Scout.