Healing in RvR - renown

[covenn]

You could always create your own PUG wb, and invite classes that are desired for more effective warband gameplay, and then kick those "trash" dps or the undesired classes (BG-WE/WH-WL) and run a better setup if you want better gainz.

Yup you can and people are doing that. I know one healer that does strictly that when he logs on. Creates a warband, moves all the dps into his group, and profits. Three crap groups and one good group and people still join for lack of other options.

I would go into a long detail explanation for others why this is problematic for fun game play, but it really should be obvious. Heh

[SilverWF]

Oh yeah, thanks for very "helpful" advices! Doing damage as a healer - just genius! Say "farewell" to your detaunt, yeah.

Ppl would always do that is more rewarding, unmatter of what you are dreaming or suggesting.
And since healing is not rewarding - just a few wanna play them.

Inb4 here pops another guy with "I am playing a healer and I am happy from zero rewards for healing anyone!"

[covenn]

First off I only play SnB tanks so its not like I am unaffected by this change. The issue is multi fold, partly like wargrim said as a tank and healer you have a low risk compared to a DPS so the rewards if anything makes sense if its lower. And thats not even considering trying to make code that is fair and take tanks and healers into consideration when calculating the drop.

As it is I dont think a system that would somehow boost a tank or healers chance to get loot is actually fair, because what metric should you use? damage avoided for a tank, damage taken for a tank? that can be lots upon lots to the point that a DPS would have no chance while still the tank is at a lower risk of dying. Same for healers, just adding in healing can easily dwarf and damage in the best of situation and still a low risk of dying.

EDIT:
also keep in mind what Im talking about here is not RR, inf or XP gain but purely the loot from a player

Ok first of all tanks can take more damage and healers can heal through it, but saying that because of this they should get less rewards doesn't encourage anyone to take on those roles. Is the plan here to push everyone into playing hybrid style classes and remove trinity? Maybe something like GW2, except where the design team doesn't suck like over at ANET?

I can't help myself with one snarky comment.... but if healers/tanks are low risk/low reward, can you keep them from being a requirement to kill a keep lord? Thanks.

As far as loot goes and the code base itself? What kind of effort and load would determining loot (and rewards across the board) be strictly on a warband basis? Basically splitting it among the warband equally? You could just track contribution towards that on the warband level rather than the individual player and split renown/xp/influence equally and then loot roll within the warband? Obviously if someone is in a group only without being in a warband, that group would have to compete against the entire warband for rolls.....

Without knowing the code at all, could something like that work? At least then it would absolutely provide incentive to group/warband up for everyone and succeed without creating situations where people need to leave to progress (ie healers and tanks needing perfect groups). A tank would get fair participation even if sitting in unfilled group #4 and he was fighting as would a healer in group 1 healing group 3.

Maybe it is supposed to work like that already? If so, something appears to be off with it.

Anyways, maybe then we can work on contributing in other circumstances outside of warband to encourage team play towards common goals.

[covenn]

No more loot or conq medallions in RvR unless you are a DPS toon unless there is a warband -and- you are in an optimally performing group. Just played a bit to check it out. There were no open warbands or groups. No conq medallions across multiple fights healing and none doing damage.... on my healing class. lmao

(yea of course i could create a warband and throw all the dps into my group thus screwing everyone else that joins... or go and completely gear out to do optimal dps and no heals)


Not sure what to say. What I thought so far seems correct and progression is all but at a halt except when all the stars align. I will keep playing and give it a shot though, and hopefully get a warband where someone is fair with the groups.

[Natherul]

Spoiler:

1. Without a group you're at a greater risk of total failure, zerg surfing or not.

Healers are the last ones to die in group/warband situations unless they screw up. Lower risk, lower reward. The more DPS you add to your heal spec, the more rewarding it becomes as you're contributing to the renown generation, but you also increase the risk of your group/warbands failure for not providing 100% non-stop healing. This 100% seems to be the hard-stuck position that most healers feel most comfortable with. Saying it forces you to solo play for good rewards ignores the range of possibilities and risks that occur between group vs solo.

2. The example given was 1v1, not following a warband as a random additional DPS class. This does happen, they do get left behind. Part of that risk taken, probably not as much as it could be, but then there are more than enough reasons to find a group already, seeing as it's the only place a proper full-time healer can earn any reasonable renown.

Also, this from today.
Natherul
- Player loot / money will no no longer go to the killing blow, but instead go to the player/group that did the most damage to the player

3. This was not intended to illuminate how rude you can be to those solo DPS players. I'm understand why you read into it like that, but the point being that if a solo DPS is willing to group up, you can both share in that glory. If they're not, your options are rather limited.

4. I'll fully disagree here. There's a long line of players that enjoy running healers and tanks as DPS. There's another long line of players that enjoy the hybrid specs that are admittedly a bit ****. Neither of these groups of players have caused the collapse of any war effort. If anything, the disparity is highly unlikely to be realm dependent, so you have equal amounts of players on both sides doing the same things. Life goes on, just not in a highly optimal way.

1. To be fair. The actual risk in being solo or not depends entirely on your class. A solo MDPS has extremely high inherent risk zerg surfing because they have to go hit people. A RDPS has inherently low risk because they can sit at max range killing stuff for profit.

Regarding the rest of #1, to be frank and with no intended insult, that is a little demeaning to the people healing to say it is low risk/low reward and I am absolutely certain most healers would back me up on that. Healers aren't damage dealers, they enable everyone else to do damage, and are the focus of anyone trying to win a fight. I spend entire fights avoiding mdps, rdps, we/wh, and trying to leave myself in a position at the same time to keep the most people alive possible. Not only that, I guarantee you that I do far far more work... not just work, but THOUGHTFUL work in a fight than any other class I play when I am on a healer. People seem to think you just spam a button and profit, and that is extremely short sighted. Triage and positioning is what a healer is about.

As it currently is, you are punishing players for supporting everyone else's enjoyment by rewarding them less and now by also telling them all that their class is low risk/low reward/mindless button spamming. Sorry if my tone is a bit cross, but try looking at it from your healer's point of view.

2. Think real hard about that comment and match it up with what all the healers are telling you. You are saying that DPS have incentive to group up because healers can ONLY group up. Well ok, but that is only partially true. Healers HAVE to group up and be in an OPTIMAL group makeup with DECENT players to function. Without that, the incentive for healers to heal goes away.

Limiting the classes that support the game play of everyone else by forcing them into perfect group comps in order to function is a self defeating, vicious cycle. Maybe someone else can explain it better than I can, because I feel like I am doing it poorly. You are basically creating an environment that removes incentive for healers to group up unless all variables align properly. As such, your statement about incentive for DPS to group up to get heals isn't valid. No heals = no incentive.

3. Sharing in glory. Great sentiment, but the truth is the healer is getting none of the glory for equal effort. Great if you are grouped and all, but healing people outside of your group, people in other groups, people in other warbands, people trying to get to their warbands while you are trying to, people caught behind, and a million other things that happen in this game where a person taking damage and a healer aren't in the same group. You are telling all your healers to say 'screw healing' and do DPS instead, without realizing that only real recourse we have as a healer spec'd and geared for healing in these situations is to heal the dps because our paltry loldps isn't going to help the situation at all. Well if we want to actually advance our toons and get rewarded for our efforts that is....

Well if you want to take it that way then the old system would be a step up? no? because there you would get squat as well as then its just about DB.

Loot on DB is not something that will come back unless there is a massive bug that has yet to be found with it in itself, because sniping the last HP from someone should not get rewarded and takes close to no skill.

I can't help myself with one snarky comment.... but if healers/tanks are low risk/low reward, can you keep them from being a requirement to kill a keep lord? Thanks.

Yes and without tanks or dps that would also be hard, your point is what exactly? Because all the archetypes have a important role in a good fight and it still wont change the fact that while healers do a massive job keeping people up, they are in the back and protect themselves so it is less risk.

[Sulorie]

Because all the archetypes have a important role in a good fight and it still wont change the fact that while healers do a massive job keeping people up, they are in the back and protect themselves so it is less risk.

How much more risk have rdps opposed to healers and yet they have an easier time to earn rewards?
Why some people have to bite the dust and play a vital and important class, but get lower rewards than the people they fight with?

[covenn]

Well if you want to take it that way then the old system would be a step up? no? because there you would get squat as well as then its just about DB.

Loot on DB is not something that will come back unless there is a massive bug that has yet to be found with it in itself, because sniping the last HP from someone should not get rewarded and takes close to no skill.

Well ok, but if we are concerned about skill and group play. Explain to me how the following is fair, balanced, and stimulating game play:

Let's say you and I are running back to our respective warbands/groups and get jumped by 4 people. I kite around like a mad man and heal my ass off to keep you alive while you kill everyone. You walk away with 4000k+ renown, 3 conqs, 1 soldier, and 2 pieces of loot. I walk away with nothing for my efforts UNLESS you had killed someone prior to respawning in which case I will get a few token ticks of renown, no medallions, and no loot.

Who exactly is the leach here? Why is it that literally only healers are punished in this situation? Any damage dealers that run into that situation would actually get rewarded for fighting and killing them.

I really can't buy into the earlier comment that I am supposed to let you die while trying to kill them/damage them myself (while specced and geared for healing non less... lmfao). That just isn't stimulating, rewarding, or fun game play.

Again... this is meant to be constructive, and not to insult or demean anyone. If I am coming across that way it is not my intent.

[Natherul]

Because all the archetypes have a important role in a good fight and it still wont change the fact that while healers do a massive job keeping people up, they are in the back and protect themselves so it is less risk.

How much more risk have rdps opposed to healers and yet they have an easier time to earn rewards?
Why some people have to bite the dust and play a vital and important class, but get lower rewards than the people they fight with?

Cant argue with this one, but again I dont get the whine because the old system was just as bad. And Im not saying that this new way is perfect (I even stated that Im not done) but its way better then having a DB be the deciding factor

Well if you want to take it that way then the old system would be a step up? no? because there you would get squat as well as then its just about DB.

Loot on DB is not something that will come back unless there is a massive bug that has yet to be found with it in itself, because sniping the last HP from someone should not get rewarded and takes close to no skill.

Well ok, but if we are concerned about skill and group play. Explain to me how the following is fair, balanced, and stimulating game play:

Let's say you and I are running back to our respective warbands/groups and get jumped by 4 people. I kite around like a mad man and heal my ass off to keep you alive while you kill everyone. You walk away with 4000k+ renown, 3 conqs, 1 soldier, and 2 pieces of loot. I walk away with nothing for my efforts UNLESS you had killed someone prior to respawning in which case I will get a few token ticks of renown, no medallions, and no loot.

Who exactly is the leach here? Why is it that literally only healers are punished in this situation? Any damage dealers that run into that situation would actually get rewarded for fighting and killing them.

I really can't buy into the earlier comment that I am supposed to let you die while trying to kill them/damage them myself (while specced and geared for healing non less... lmfao). That just isn't stimulating, rewarding, or fun game play.

Again... this is meant to be constructive, and not to insult or demean anyone. If I am coming across that way it is not my intent.

As I replied to the same comment on the patch note:
with the old system you would have to get the DB to get any loot thus robbing the damage dealer of any loot, your chance of doing this is small since you are a healer and do less damage then the damage dealer and still then if you did manage to do it, his job was meaningless in the same way as you say you are now.

Again not a perfect system but I am not done yet and even if I were done I would say this new way is WAAAY better then letting DB decide

[covenn]

Cant argue with this one, but again I dont get the whine because the old system was just as bad. And Im not saying that this new way is perfect (I even stated that Im not done) but its way better then having a DB be the deciding factor

Look. I am being completely civil. I am explaining a problem to you in detail as well as why I think it is a problem. I also offered up possible ways to improve it. Telling me I am 'whining' is insulting and simply wrong. Reasonable discourse should not devolve into a lack of respect and civility between people. I am trying to help you

[covenn]

Again not a perfect system but I am not done yet and even if I were done I would say this new way is WAAAY better then letting DB decide

Well it certainly is better for everyone capable of dishing out massive damage or in an optimal group. No argument there.