[Review] [BW/Sorc] Mechanic

[th3gatekeeper]

I've got 2 similar proposals:

A) The mechanic stays exactly the same, but the backlash damage you take is for the same amount of damage you dealt on the ability which triggered the backlash. So if you crit someone for a 2.5k word of pain which triggers a backlash, you also take 2.5k damage.

B) Instead of full damage to both targets, the backlash causes half of the damage to be dealt to the original target and half to be dealt to you. So if you have a 2k damage crit without backlash, that same 2k damage crit on backlash would deal 1k to your target and 1k to you. Sort of like a gun blowing up in your face, it'll still hurt the other guy, but it's not as effective as it would be if it hadn't blown up, and you also are hurting from it.

Edit: Since the intent is to reward players for proper management rather than simply punish them for improper management, I might not recommend the second one. I like the idea of combustion causing an increase in AP costs and consuming combustion restoring AP, as a good player will know when to push for high combustion for a finishing combo and then be rewarded with an AP restoration by dumping combustion.

I dont know about you, but I think it would help when people make recommendation to state what they think the problem(s) are and what problem(s) this solves.

Yes, in terms of "ignoring at 100% in a warband" both of these do just that - a BW will not want to offload more than 1 rotation at 100% mechanic.

However what did this solution just do? 100% kills any ability for a BW to play solo, or without a healer. Even at low mechanic, you can nuke yourself.

This also doesnt fix the issue that at low mechanic BWs/Sorcs are basically **** and do no damage.

Both of these systems seem WAY over punishing and the only saving grace of this proposal is that now in warbands, BWs have a very punishing but rewarding mechanic, but outside a warband where they are fully supported with ranged advantage - you just ruined the class.

[areanda]

Well first off.. I play sorc/bw everyday ... almost since the start
Let's start with the most common ones I seen a wounds debuff would kill the class since it's base wounds are alr low, the sw and engineers / magus and sh would 1 shot us.
Another thing on the mechanic itself the backlash the nightmare and always pops on the most horrendous times.
Yes the backlash is we're we die 80% of the time to since wot others alr said heal gets cc or silence or knockdown or ur positional awareness is not good.
In wb plays ur 1 or outta ap 90% of the time or ur alr dead so the Ap option also goes out of the window yes u can cover that with certain classes/pots but as Any bomber knows it's never enough.

The mechanic itself no backlashes I seen someone mentioning the choppy/slayers is Good well there lies ur answer make it the same ... like increase the damage u gain from enemy when on a certain amount of rage/combustion drop it or take the risk ... risk vs rewards that's my 2 cents any other option I've seen so far is meehhh mirror it with choppy/ slayer and open another post for wh/we aswell.. have a good 1 ya'll

[Stmichael1989]

I've got 2 similar proposals:

A) The mechanic stays exactly the same, but the backlash damage you take is for the same amount of damage you dealt on the ability which triggered the backlash. So if you crit someone for a 2.5k word of pain which triggers a backlash, you also take 2.5k damage.

B) Instead of full damage to both targets, the backlash causes half of the damage to be dealt to the original target and half to be dealt to you. So if you have a 2k damage crit without backlash, that same 2k damage crit on backlash would deal 1k to your target and 1k to you. Sort of like a gun blowing up in your face, it'll still hurt the other guy, but it's not as effective as it would be if it hadn't blown up, and you also are hurting from it.

Edit: Since the intent is to reward players for proper management rather than simply punish them for improper management, I might not recommend the second one. I like the idea of combustion causing an increase in AP costs and consuming combustion restoring AP, as a good player will know when to push for high combustion for a finishing combo and then be rewarded with an AP restoration by dumping combustion.

I dont know about you, but I think it would help when people make recommendation to state what they think the problem(s) are and what problem(s) this solves.

Yes, in terms of "ignoring at 100% in a warband" both of these do just that - a BW will not want to offload more than 1 rotation at 100% mechanic.

However what did this solution just do? 100% kills any ability for a BW to play solo, or without a healer. Even at low mechanic, you can nuke yourself.

This also doesnt fix the issue that at low mechanic BWs/Sorcs are basically **** and do no damage.

Both of these systems seem WAY over punishing and the only saving grace of this proposal is that now in warbands, BWs have a very punishing but rewarding mechanic, but outside a warband where they are fully supported with ranged advantage - you just ruined the class.

That's a good point, so it would need some tweaking. Since the slayer mechanic has been brought up, let's make a rough prototype around that model.

0-25 combustion: Very little to no crit boost.
25-75 combustion: Moderate crit boost, very low combustion chance (say 5-10%)
75+ combustion: High crit boost, significant combustion chance (same as live.)

In order to facilitate solo play, have the combustion dump ability consume up to 50 combustion so that a BW/Sorc can continuously build up to 75 and then dump down to 25 to avoid the big risk.

[th3gatekeeper]

That's a good point, so it would need some tweaking. Since the slayer mechanic has been brought up, let's make a rough prototype around that model.

0-25 combustion: Very little to no crit boost.
25-75 combustion: Moderate crit boost, very low combustion chance (say 5-10%)
75+ combustion: High crit boost, significant combustion chance (same as live.)

In order to facilitate solo play, have the combustion dump ability consume up to 50 combustion so that a BW/Sorc can continuously build up to 75 and then dump down to 25 to avoid the big risk.

OK, so you addressed problem #3 - "Poop damage with no combustion"
and KINDA problem #1 - "PUG play and non healer play"

But we didnt address problem #2 - how you can 100% ignore this mechanic when supported by a healer.

So now we swung the pendulum way too far the OTHER way.

The mechanic itself no backlashes I seen someone mentioning the choppy/slayers is Good well there lies ur answer make it the same ... like increase the damage u gain from enemy when on a certain amount of rage/combustion drop it or take the risk ... risk vs rewards that's my 2 cents any other option I've seen so far is meehhh mirror it with choppy/ slayer and open another post for wh/we aswell.. have a good 1 ya'll

I dont play a Choppa/Slayer so I cant comment MUCH, but what I constantly hear (from them because I main tanks) is that they are also pretty much "unplayable" unless supported by a tank.

So now we are progressing towards BW/Sorc/Slayer/Choppa who are all unplayable unless fully supported.

I get that this game is so balance around "premade warband play" but I think its a bad idea to design class mechanics so that you basically CANT play unless fully supported...

I would be move in favor of first looking to make them FUN and Playable for all types of play:
- PUG SC
- Premade SC
- PUG Warband
- Premade Warband

Of which, most of these suggestions only address 1 or maybe 2 types of play.

I believe the suggestion I proposed about Combustion not providing ANY benefits until you "consume" it all which then provides the benefits for X seconds aids the class in all FOUR styles of play, while also (from my perspective) being fun.

It also addresses all 3 "problems" identified with the class mechanic itself. Now, someone may disagree with my stated "3 problems" and thats fine, but thats what I have seen in my time with BW.

[Stmichael1989]

That's a good point, so it would need some tweaking. Since the slayer mechanic has been brought up, let's make a rough prototype around that model.

0-25 combustion: Very little to no crit boost.
25-75 combustion: Moderate crit boost, very low combustion chance (say 5-10%)
75+ combustion: High crit boost, significant combustion chance (same as live.)

In order to facilitate solo play, have the combustion dump ability consume up to 50 combustion so that a BW/Sorc can continuously build up to 75 and then dump down to 25 to avoid the big risk.

OK, so you addressed problem #3 - "Poop damage with no combustion"
and KINDA problem #1 - "PUG play and non healer play"

But we didnt address problem #2 - how you can 100% ignore this mechanic when supported by a healer.

So now we swung the pendulum way too far the OTHER way.

I wouldn't say so. If the combustion damage is equal to the damage you deal, then that's a significant strain on your healer, especially if you're already being attacked. Letting rip with your timestamp combo while you're already taking damage/heal debuffed would have a good chance of killing yourself in the process.

[th3gatekeeper]

That's a good point, so it would need some tweaking. Since the slayer mechanic has been brought up, let's make a rough prototype around that model.

0-25 combustion: Very little to no crit boost.
25-75 combustion: Moderate crit boost, very low combustion chance (say 5-10%)
75+ combustion: High crit boost, significant combustion chance (same as live.)

In order to facilitate solo play, have the combustion dump ability consume up to 50 combustion so that a BW/Sorc can continuously build up to 75 and then dump down to 25 to avoid the big risk.

OK, so you addressed problem #3 - "Poop damage with no combustion"
and KINDA problem #1 - "PUG play and non healer play"

But we didnt address problem #2 - how you can 100% ignore this mechanic when supported by a healer.

So now we swung the pendulum way too far the OTHER way.

I wouldn't say so. If the combustion damage is equal to the damage you deal, then that's a significant strain on your healer, especially if you're already being attacked. Letting rip with your timestamp combo while you're already taking damage/heal debuffed would have a good chance of killing yourself in the process.

Gotcha, so you meant to combine that with the other suggestion. Sorry as I didnt catch that the first time.

So to summarize your suggestion.
0-25: very little.
26-75: say 25% crit and 75% crit damage. (Low chance of backlash ~5-10%)
76+: 35% crit and 100% crit damage. High chance of backlash (live %?)

And backlash = 100% of the damage you dealt to the opponant.

Your "spend" mechanic removes 50 (not 100) so it's easier to drop down to tier 2 where you have low combustion again.

This could work and seems like it addresses some of the three issues. I would ask the key question: "is it fun?" And I would need to try it before I can say forsure. It seems maybe a tad too punishing at max mechanic as you get hit with a combo as your backlash hits you and GG. Even a small % chance for big damage could kill you combined with other inc. Damage.

It's not a bad idea though...

[Coma]

OK, so you addressed problem #3 - "Poop damage with no combustion"
and KINDA problem #1 - "PUG play and non healer play"

But we didnt address problem #2 - how you can 100% ignore this mechanic when supported by a healer.

So now we swung the pendulum way too far the OTHER way.

I wouldn't say so. If the combustion damage is equal to the damage you deal, then that's a significant strain on your healer, especially if you're already being attacked. Letting rip with your timestamp combo while you're already taking damage/heal debuffed would have a good chance of killing yourself in the process.

Gotcha, so you meant to combine that with the other suggestion. Sorry as I didnt catch that the first time.

So to summarize your suggestion.
0-25: very little.
26-75: say 25% crit and 75% crit damage. (Low chance of backlash ~5-10%)
76+: 35% crit and 100% crit damage. High chance of backlash (live %?)

And backlash = 100% of the damage you dealt to the opponant.

Your "spend" mechanic removes 50 (not 100) so it's easier to drop down to tier 2 where you have low combustion again.

This could work and seems like it addresses some of the three issues. I would ask the key question: "is it fun?" And I would need to try it before I can say forsure. It seems maybe a tad too punishing at max mechanic as you get hit with a combo as your backlash hits you and GG. Even a small % chance for big damage could kill you combined with other inc. Damage.

It's not a bad idea though...

And how would you calculate the damage return with AoE? do you take all the AoE damage on yourself (=instakill... even half the damage will likely kill yourself on a single proc)? the highest value (it will still be less than what you would take from an explosion from a non crit single target attack)?

And with channeling? Dot? do you take the full damage at the start (what if interrupted/cleased?) or you take it tick by tick? what if you drop your combustion midway (with how DoT work their damage is calculated tick by tick so you could set them up at low combustion and have them tick at high combustion without problem or you may end up clearing your combstion midway)?

Sorry but damage return is much more complicated than what it look at first sight... especialy with a class that have a considerable focus on AoE and DoT/channel (or even worse combination fo the 2 like several BW/Sorc skill).
Combustion being a FIXED value is the best way to get "self inflicted damage by casting". And since it look like there is no way to find a value that will make it sensible in organized WB and not turn into a "kill yourself" for solo/pug we should probably drop the idea of damage and go for a different kind of drawback imho

As for the several debuff type proposed;

Wouds debuff is probably excessive with the current gear... it would end up forcing BW/Sorc to soket wound to survive any form of aoe spike (if you drop to 3k hp... that is quite resonable once you stack opponent hp debuff with self inflicted hp debuff... you could die even without a spike... just sustained damage could be enough to kill you in a single timestamp).

Cost increase is probably the best to limit BW/Sorc to only spike damage at full comb/DM rather than keepeing themself at 100 full time it obviously have to be a steep increase in order to take into account personal and group AP regen (you can't just add 20 AP to the cost or runeprist will just cover it with a greater rune or you could circunvent it with devour energy).

Increased dmg recived or increased chance to be critically hit are probably the best if the aim is to conserve the current feel of "dealing more damage but risking your life in doing so". But is also quite hard to fine tune an increased crit damage should also be avoided in order to prevent "one shot" scenario (think about a critted festering arrow or snipe that got an additional 50% or 100% crit damage on top of it's normal crit damage).


PS: sory if it seemed a bit harsh (realized only after writing it all and didn't have the patience to rewrite it from scratch ) my aim was only to point out critical problems with impementing the damage return (as you can see there are actualy several of them) not to trash your proposal ^^

[Bozzax]

@100 add a % on cast to loose all ap and self inflict a 10s stun

[Wdova]

Insted of blowing up BW at 100% combustion, make some major BW skill COST combustion insted of building up. Mechanic will work the same as BG/Sorc or AM/Shaman. More often You use your best skills, less class mechanic points You have. Lets make some of theyr major skills cost 20-30 combustion. It is stupid, that all skills build combustion, but non of them cost it. This will force BW/sorc build up combustion between rotations to maintain high class mechanic points.

Example. You build up 100% combustion, than Your rotation of 4-5 skills will get you down to 20% - 0%.

[Danord]

I just read thru this whole thing.
Is this for real?