Racial group fixing.

[roadkillrobin]

The kotbs m4 in Glory is crazy crazy strong for ORVR also one of the best morales in the game.

[footpatrol2]

People call you the warband guy b/c just like how you claim people only see things in terms of 6v6 we see you see things in terms of 12-24 players and potentially blind to the implications of your changes in other threads to small scale gameplay

I don't focus on small-scale 6 man play because the majority of the game is not played in that way. Most SC's in this game are 12 man and some being 18 man, with cities being 24 man. I focus on 12 man play because of how the majority of SC's are structured. It is a RoR creation to implement a steady 6v6 situation. I am unsure if this is healthy or not due to the perspective that has been formed. For the majority of the time in AoR there were barely any 6 man SC's. Very few in fact.

If I focus in on 12 man play. I can participate in all of the scenario's. I can easily take on pug warbands possible two pug warbands in ORvR. I can fight double premades in Sc's. I build the groups to support each other instead of isolated 6 man groups working independently. If I can grow my group up to 18 man there is even scenario's in the game for me to participate in. I played this game when scenario's were tied to zone flips. We needed competitive 12 man's to beat the opposition. I am from that generation. I never left that mindset. If you didn't win the scenario's you were unlikely to get the zone flip.

Since I was running 12 man racial groups with usually new players vs mixed meta groups with better gear, I had to kick up my organization and coordination skills and find creative ways to mitigate my weaknesses and exaggerate my strengths. A lot of my strength's were tied to the racial morale's to include the spec specific morale 4's.

As a competitive premade organizer that plays this game... Why wouldn't I want to control all aspect's of a scenario fight. We needed it to get the zone flip. To me this is logical. Hyper Competitive 12 man play operates differently then hyper competitive 6 man play. Maybe I am the last of my kind. Do you think I don't understand small scale 6 man meta? You have to have a solid understanding of that to get to 12 man. Do you think I don't take into consideration small scale? I can keep going but i'll stop here.

Again I'll reference this post, on why this game isn't solely based on 6 man meta. I'm not saying people are wrong for focusing here, but the rabbit hole goes a lot further. Please understand my perspective. Hopefully I don't come off sounding like a jerk.

6 man meta
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12342

[TenTonHammer]

Right but in that 6 man meta thread you your self said that balance should be focused on the 12 man meta not 6 man meta

The problem is that their is a disparity in preformance the 12 man scale that can "make you ignore issues"

For example in 12 mans you will always want to probably pick a magus to be a glorified rift bot and aoe it will proably preform well at that scale but that dosnt change the fact as pointed out in the "magus why so weak thread?" That the class is underwhelming and needs buffs

Another perhaps better example as you pointed in your gs racial group you can brute force heal targets with multiple shammys to ignore or reduce the effectiveness of shatter confidence with kotbs

So even though the tactic is fundementaly bs it might be consider ok because you've got more heals and healers to throw around that it's more forgiving

[Bozzax]

IF organised 12v12 ever existed 4 Slayers, 2 KOTBS, 2SMs (or IBs), 2WP, 2RPs would be the cookie cutter 12man. (Dessie: 2xMara, 2xChp (or 2xMara), 2xBO, 2xCho, 4xDOK)

Or simply double the ol' cookie cutter 6man.

No other comps would perform better (outside of Theoryland).

Spoiler:

There are no magical synergies outside of those 6 man units nor any abilities that would change this. (not even pull). Group buffs and morales solidify the fact that 12 mans only are as strong as it weakest link (the 6man groups).

Immunities removes the need to take other lesser classes as the cookie cutter setups pretty much will leave no windows for additional CC. These setups ofc field the most effective CC in the game.

12man do make rdps a tad stronger as long as there is enough melee to form a front. Here is the thing though those mixed setups would still be stomped by a proper "organised cookie cutter melee 12man".

However you can make average rdps/mdps 12mans which is much harder at 6v6 level. These mixed 12mans would be very effective vs pugs simply because they get enough "AOE ompf" to kill random groups.

The belief that 12v12 balance being separate is nothing more then an illusion.

Or .... 12 = 2 x 6

[Jaycub]

12v12 will never be accepted as the standard or ""competitive"" because it lacks structure in that you cannot que as 12 reliably and it's not supported officially. RvR is fun and without question the main focus of this game, but I wouldn't call it competitive in the traditional sense.

If you look to other competitive games most teams consist of ~5 players, it's just easier to manage, and easier for regular players to get a full group together. It would be a bit of a nightmare finding ~6 more core players that would fit into our roster, and all the new roles etc...

Smaller team sizes are also more exciting, and allows players to showcase skill more. And in turn mistakes are punished more, and as well good plays are more impactful.

I personally don't care too much what this game gets balanced around, but I would like every class to have some kind of 6v6/small scale viability and RDPS to stop being jokes in those arenas to increase diversity and break away from melee train meta.

Spoiler:

RvR is fun and without question the main focus of this game
RvR is fun and without question the main focus of this game
RvR is fun and without question the main focus of this game

[Bozzax]

I don't focus on small-scale 6 man play because the majority of the game is not played in that way.

Wrong the majority of this game was played in WB (4 parties), party (6man) or solo (1)

Dungons - 6man
Queueing SCs – Solo (1) or party (1x6)
City – WBs( 4x6), solo or Party (1x6)
ORVR – Party (1x6) WBs (1-4x6) with a chat and a reward sharing system

Renown, xp, loot was either rewarded solo, party or WB

Most SC's in this game are 12 man and some being 18 man, with cities being 24 man. I focus on 12 man play because of how the majority of SC's are structured.

Yep is the most common size but there is and was 6v6 SCs. Here is the problem though you queue as party (1-6) or solo (1) so you won't be able to join SCs.

It is a RoR creation to implement a steady 6v6 situation. I am unsure if this is healthy or not due to the perspective that has been formed. For the majority of the time in AoR there were barely any 6 man SC's. Very few in fact.

6v6 SCs was part of the permanent rotation for years
6v6 scene was part of WAR for years 12v12 never was
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... B%226v6%22
About 2,140 results

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... 2212v12%22
About 22 results

If I focus in on 12 6 man play. I can participate in all of the scenario's. I can easily take on pug warbands possible two pug warbands in ORvR. I can fight double premades in Sc's.

Fixed it

I build the groups to support each other instead of isolated 6 man groups working independently.
Mate there are exactly ZERO abilities, buffs, morales that affect 12 or more.

Assisting, Morale bombing isn’t support it is just collaboration.

If I can grow my group up to 18 man there is even scenario's in the game for me to participate in.

Wrong

I played this game when scenario's were tied to zone flips. We needed competitive 12 man's to beat the opposition. I am from that generation. I never left that mindset. If you didn't win the scenario's you were unlikely to get the zone flip.

Competitive 12 man's? Seriously you needed full WBs and/or competitive parties (6mans) doing SCs to influence a zone flip.

Since I was running 12 man racial groups with usually new players vs mixed meta groups with better gear, I had to kick up my organization and coordination skills and find creative ways to mitigate my weaknesses and exaggerate my strengths. A lot of my strength's were tied to the racial morale's to include the spec specific morale 4's.

So half a WB morale bombing is that what competitive 12 man is?

My own opinion is that incoming morale damage should be hard capped to disable morale bombing for all future.

[roadkillrobin]

6v6 SC was not a thing in this game for moast of its life. This have been proven both with anectodatal evidence and patch notes. They were bonus content for live events that usually lasted a month.

I can't prove this but Im 99.99% sure the ballance anchor for this game is based on a 12v12 confrontation. Its X2 of a 6man /2 of a warband. The Scenario size is originally 12, there are 12 classes on each realm.
Also I know Annaise agrees on this. Theres more patterns that points towards 12v12 being the ballanced numbers when you look at heals output vs dps output.

Also Morale Bombs are allready capped to 9 targets. And GL to ever take a defended keep without Morale Bombs. That will completly destroy ORVR and make sure that numbers ALWAYS win.

[Bozzax]

2008 sept game released
2009
2010
6v6 scenarios are introduced in a live event and later same year was made part of the permanent line-up
1.3.4 New 6v6 Live Event Scenario: The Ironclad

Q – Is there a possibility that we will have a permanent addition of a 6v6 scenario?
Carrie – So the answer is yes. It’s completely a possibility. We have been talking about revisiting the rotation based on the metrics we’ve been pulling and looking at some of the favorite Weekend Warfronts. If this goes over well and we decide that it is a bonus to the rotation, then I suspect you’ll see it permanently. (GG – The Eternal Citadel is a new 6v6 scenario that is being tested for 1.3.6 right now.)

2011 dec
[war herald]

holiday bonus and scenario shakeup
The line-up of scenarios that are permanently available has changed. The new list is as follows:

Tier 1
Nordenwatch
Battle for Praag
Gates of Ekrund (6v6)

Tier 2
Nordenwatch
Mourkain Temple
Gates of Ekrund (6v6)

Tier 3
Nordenwatch
Mourkain Temple
Gates of Ekrund (6v6)
Reikland Factory

Tier 4
Nordenwatch
Mourkain Temple
Gates of Ekrund (6v6)
Reikland Factory
Caledor Woods (6v6)

2012 jan
1.4.5

Scenarios

The line-up of scenarios that are permanently available has changed. The new list is as follows:
Tier 1

Nordenwatch
Battle for Praag
Gates of Ekrund (6v6)
Tier 2

Nordenwatch
Mourkain Temple
Gates of Ekrund (6v6)
Tier 3

Nordenwatch
Mourkain Temple
Gates of Ekrund (6v6)
Reikland Factory
Tier 4

Nordenwatch
Mourkain Temple
Gates of Ekrund (6v6)
Reikland Factory
Caledor Woods (6v6)
Grovod Caverns (MP)

2013 dec *RIP*

So when we look at the history of this game and the FACT that it had 0 permanent content for 6v6 It becomes really obvius that the game was ballanced for 12v12 in smaller scale combat.

> Wrong

There hasn't been any single permanent 6v6 content in this game at all until the very end of the game..

> Wrong

6v6 SC was not a thing in this game for moast of its life. This have been proven both with anectodatal evidence and patch notes. They were bonus content for live events that usually lasted a month.

> Wrong

[roadkillrobin]

And the Iron Clad lasted a month. We checked this up last time you made this claim. Also the fact that the game was not packeted with any 6v6 pvp content and didn't have any for years kinda indicate that the game designers didn't have any plans for it. What Bioware and Mythic wanted to do with the game actally made the lead designer quit the game.And those changes are made after he left. And so did the majority of the population.

[Bozzax]

I only show that there was permanent 6v6 content and for a significant part of the servers life. Do reread this part ...

The line-up of scenarios that are permanently available has changed. The new list is as follows: ...

I've never claimed it was packed with 6v6 I simply provide "proof" that what you write is incorrect

It is funny how you guys can't provide any external sources backing you up. Not a single one. Yet write post after post on how the game really was and how the game was designed.

Again

12 = 2 x 6

The strongest 12man you currently can build is the current 6man cookie cutter x2. There simply are no extra synergies available outside of a 6man. The only thing you gain by being 12 is the option to assist for more damage but that can be achieved by the same 12 solo assisting.