Overarching balance changes

[bloodi]

Was trying to make a point why double WP is just as viable as double DoK even tho WP cleansing are sigificant
worse. Even tho they can't cleanse some nasty healdebuffs they arn't as affected by them coz of the stacking heal increase buffs they get.

So 50% heal debuff is comparable to 10% crit more on heals and 15% improved healing?

[Jaycub]

what stacking heal increase buffs?

RP has blessing of Grungni which is 25% increased healing for their target which means it effects both healers, WP has exalted defenses which is a 20% increase only for themselves and only on a defence/avoidance which means they need to be getting hit which isn't likely in a controlled environment outside of ORvR?

WP don't have get out of jail free card M2 either, another big contributor to double dok groups.

[Annaise16]

With regard to the first topic, when the game is available;
1. Log onto different toons and visit the career trainer.
2. Swap out pieces of gear with your main stat to see how your main stat and your target's toughness effect damage. 3. Alter the number of mastery points in each tree to see how ability level alters damage.
4. Use this data to derive the formulae used to calculate damage for each ability.
5. Go to the Arsenal of War website to see the stats for the relevant gear.
6. Recall the damage bonuses you had on your toons at different renown ranks and in different gear sets.
7. Put all of this together to make the comparisons.

So essentially what you are saying is that a WH will have a 40-45% damage increase and BW will have a 35-40% damage increase WITHOUT including Auto attacks and any modifiers aye ? (From your methodology that is - and a MAIN POINT of my argument)

With regard to the CCM videos. Just search for them on youtube using warhammer CCM. The scen I mentioned was, I think, the only 6v6 in which the RP died. So they seemed to have a fair idea of what they were doing.

The only videos i see are from lvl 35 ? And even then you wouldn't pop like that. And as far as RP at 40 without having ol' WB or access to both incoming and outgoing healdebuff it ain't a very smart idea to start/go for the RP.

AA damage was included in the comparison. I already had the formulas for that as well.

With regard to the videos, they were posted when th emax level was 35. So all of the toons are at max level for the time. Watch the other vids to see how the RP goes. They had the same group in every 6v6 and that was the only one they lost and in which the RP died. Check out their play in those other scens before you pass judement on the RP's build.

[Penril]

Does anyone find it sad that even though WP can't cleanse Mara (best mdps in the game?), BO (best tank in the game according to several people), WE or SH, most people still pick WP over AMs?

And apparently a lot of people love to run WPx2 as well.

[Jaycub]

single target cleanse.

going back to this post,

Spoiler:

Most order groups I think run WP/RP, but is it even worth using the GCD on the RP for a single cleanse?

Mara literally shits out crappy ailments that it doesn't care if they get removed, BO is constantly throwing out the str debuff ailment, chosen has crippling strikes... what I am getting at is there is a ton of cover being thrown around.

I don't play healers in any competitive fashion, so forgive my ignorance... but it just seems fruitless to try and grab a worthless cleanse on something when you have to wade through so much **** to get to it. Esp against the destro comps when their tanks have multiple AoE debuffs, and mara is like the king of debuffs. I'm not saying order can't bury stuff deep either, it just seems easier on destro.

@penril: posted this before i saw your response, I guess it still works in response in that group cleanse is extremely important and when one side has a group cleanse that removes more important debuffs in comparison it creates situations that are shitty for order as landaren posted in his example. Those situations being people running the meta groups (group cleanse being a big factor of why they are meta).

At least RP/Zealot can get no CD cleanse... AM is just stuck in the mud in that regard.

[bloodi]

In pugs is just leaps and bounds easier to heal on the wp. That could be ok.

In group play, is just leaps and bounds easier to heal on the wp. People runs rps because well, they have to.

We made one change, one, to the Am, letting him heal with healing energy on the move, we waited like a week for people to bring something against it, no one did, they did the change and people were seriously mad that we didnt broadcast to everyone that we were going to change that and predicted the apocalypse from it. It didnt matter at all in the end.

So yeah its sad but doesnt surprise me at all.

single target cleanse.

Single target cleanses are good enough, most have tactics to improve them they are not just on the braindead level of the wp/dok ones, Am equivalent is a good thing to spends your gcds in, Rps just have better buttons to press most of the time, thats why even with the possibility of no cd on them, they just choose something else.

When you have a class that doesnt even have to click on the proper ally to cleanse, they just cleanse everyone on the group every 5 secs, both of them, they are just going to overperform because of it.

[Jaycub]

People run WP/RP because a second WP isn't bringing anything really spectacular and the RP has nice support like blessing of grungni, AP rune, buffs (cover for dok cleanse every minute), etc...

Or that's why we run RP anyways, the only time we run double WP is for bomb groups just because the nature of the fights are different and the extra proc is very good when you are running double BW.

[Vigfuss]

Cleanse renders what classes useless?

Let me give you an example.
Group 1
Magus, Sorc, Chosen, BG, DoK, DoK
Not a great group make up but it can work

VS
Slay, Slay, Kotb, Kotb, WP, WP
Considered OP by every destro player on earth

In the above example what party will be capable of removing debuffs effectively?
Both parties have healers that counter the DPS's debuffs.

Now lets change things around a little for destro.

Marauder, WE, Chosen, BO, Dok Dok
VS same order premade
Now what team is more effective in the meta?

Suddenly, order cannot remove any snares, nor can they remove any healing debuffs. Destro will have the edge here with CC and debuff removal, pressure wont be applied by the slayers because the WP wont be able to keep up with the damage output from destro forcing them to either withdraw or slowly die.

What I would say about cleanse is that it's actually a crappy ability that is over performing in some situation, and useless in others.

You are tyring to justify imbalance by using another imbalance as an example (Destro has 3 Ailment inc healdebuffs, while order has one crappy 25% curse one on DPS WP).

In other words: "it is ok if group cleanse makes Magus useless, because WP can't cleanse Mara or WE". Bad logic is bad.

He didn't really make the point very well but he's not totally wrong IMO. On live 2x Slayer 2x WP was totally competitive against 2x Mrd 2x DoK, and i think it is here too. Order's better passive buffs just power through it all without even cleansing anything. This is how it's balanced right now.

Changing the way cleanse works might have to be done at the same time as adjusting Kotbs tactics, and that makes it complicated.

[Landaren]

what stacking heal increase buffs?

RP has blessing of Grungni which is 25% increased healing for their target which means it effects both healers, WP has exalted defenses which is a 20% increase only for themselves and only on a defence/avoidance which means they need to be getting hit which isn't likely in a controlled environment outside of ORvR?

WP don't have get out of jail free card M2 either, another big contributor to double dok groups.

Lets be real about exalt D

If you are taking hits at the moment in this game as a healer even as a D spec WP you are going to pop you might take a few more to pop, but you will pop all the same.

To bloodi

It's literally the same Fing class, save 2 tactics (not talking DPS) and cleanse able Debuffs.

DoK has Aliments and hexes. Guess what every DPS class on orders incoming healing debuff is?
An Aliment, or a Hex.


If you want me to keep breaking things down farther to prove my points I will.

[roadkillrobin]

Was trying to make a point why double WP is just as viable as double DoK even tho WP cleansing are sigificant
worse. Even tho they can't cleanse some nasty healdebuffs they arn't as affected by them coz of the stacking heal increase buffs they get.

So 50% heal debuff is comparable to 10% crit more on heals and 15% improved healing?

No I said arn't AS AFFECTED, DoK't don't get any of these healbuffs but in return they have much better cleansing.

10% Healcrit from DT is 5% heal increase. 15% from Focused Mending. 20% heal increase that cuts the healdebuff down to 40%. If they also gets Exalted Defence proc then heal debuff is down to 30% efectiveness.