While a Bomb group was "one" of the most powerful groups I ever ran with, by far the most overwhelming power group I ever ran with and ever saw was a rift group when WAR released. We ran 1 rift Magus, 3 AE Marauders (they used to be awesome), 1 Sorc and 1 Zealot. When WAR first released there was NO limit on the number of players that could get pulled by a Magus. There was NO limit on the number of players that could get AE knocked down. It was Very Stupid OP what we did to SCs and multiple WBs.
Our 6 man would pull 1 or 2 WBs or the entire SC into one pixel point. That alone caused an inescapable CC. As soon as they landed they got knocked down, so no healing or casting for them, then our AE burned them ALL quickly. Every time, without fail.
Now while AE Marauders are not very strong anymore, there are other setups that can mimic the above. If any player wants the AE 9 target limit removed, so be it. That is what you will face .
For the sake of the game, please keep the 9 target limit in.
Coming back to the original topic...I completely disagree with your vision about mechanics issues.
Balancing issues are not about defensive stats, it's about tanks melee mechanics and mdps damage burst, in my opinion.
1) 2h Tanks should lose every defensive privileges, it's not fair that a Tank can dispense same dps than a mdps with a much better survival. This makes no sense. Tanks "dps wannabe" ?? Ok, you run clothes.
2) If a mdps, wh or we for example, have a ridiculous survivability, as it should be, then it MUST have a very high ability to disintegrate enemies. I'm talking about damage per second against squishy targets. In WAR it does not work at all.
These two features about WAR completely distorts the game and classes, because it distorts the principle that TANKS (with shield!!!) > MDPS, MDPS > CASTERS, CASTERS > TANKS.
Or you can read it as follow: MDPS have the task to eliminate opponents casters and should be able to do (in a short time) ONLY if no tank run to the rescue of the caster.
This is a balance!! And only in this situation every class has his specific role.
Complete and utter tosh (that first point ^). Wellplayed MDPS will always outdps a 2h tank (exception being a glasscannon BO but they blow up quicker than a dps am)
Coming back to the original topic...I completely disagree with your vision about mechanics issues.
Balancing issues are not about defensive stats, it's about tanks melee mechanics and mdps damage burst, in my opinion.
1) 2h Tanks should lose every defensive privileges, it's not fair that a Tank can dispense same dps than a mdps with a much better survival. This makes no sense. Tanks "dps wannabe" ?? Ok, you run clothes.
2) If a mdps, wh or we for example, have a ridiculous survivability, as it should be, then it MUST have a very high ability to disintegrate enemies. I'm talking about damage per second against squishy targets. In WAR it does not work at all.
These two features about WAR completely distorts the game and classes, because it distorts the principle that TANKS (with shield!!!) > MDPS, MDPS > CASTERS, CASTERS > TANKS.
Or you can read it as follow: MDPS have the task to eliminate opponents casters and should be able to do (in a short time) ONLY if no tank run to the rescue of the caster.
This is a balance!! And only in this situation every class has his specific role.
1) That statement is completely wrong:
- Tanks do not gain a burst potential like a melee DD, except maybe you talk about some DD who stacks thoughness for no reason. The only tanks i could imagine doing "DD-like" damage are very squisshy SM or BO (with focussed offense).
- With FO slotted they have pretty much the same armor value as a medium armored melee DD. Should speccing for defense (e.g. parry/disrupt/dodge through renown, abilities like 100% parry/disrupt) made be unavailable to melee DDs for the same reason? You write that tanks should have zero defense when going "DPS mode", but DDs can still spec for several defensiv options.
- Why should tanks without a shield exactly be debuffed to cloth armor values? Do they get a low AP/long duration AOE detaunt and stealth too?
- Tanks have almost no utility to connect/stay at the target; no charge, no snare/root immunity.
The misused "charge+AP pot" doesn't count, as this crap should have been fixed by mythic a long time ago. Same for certain renown abilities that shouldn't be in the game for the these reasons: they allow archetypes to execute actions they should have no access to and would normally have to rely on others archetypes to help them (e.g. cleanse).
- Tanks lack further utility to bring down a healed target, i.e. incoming healdebuff.
2) Also wrong:
- WH/WE have no low survivability as written above: the best AOE detaunt of all melee DDs (the low AP cost guarantees that it is always ready); at level 40 they get a selfpunt+stagger. Every choppa/slayer has a way lower survivability when going full retard mode + thoughness self debuff due to the tactic.
- Why exactly do you think WH/WE damage is too low (some explanation/tests/numbers compared with other DDs etc.)?
About the rest:
The block chance from shields is almost completely negated by high strength/intelligence/ballistic skill. There is no rael™ big difference in "tankiness" between a shield tank and a 2h tank, when they have the same spec/stats. The shield tank is just the better guard tank and has other shield related options, like "hold the line".
Also: most tanks run around with full duelist set atm, which means they have a 30% damage buff on the target for most of the time.
The statement about melee DDs that should be able to kill any healer (i guess solo) is also wrong; this totally depends on the personal playerskill of the healer: if the healer detaunts or staggers you for instance, there is no way you get him down. If you pop out of stealth and knockdown him without incoming healdebuff while he is healed by several other healers, don't wonder why his HP bar doesn't go under 80% etc. pp.
Seriously, i'm all for strengthening the archetype balance, as i think this is the only way to balance the game without changing it into another boring "everyone can do everything" experience like most modern MMOs.
But your gameplay experience seems to be thightened around playing one of the two stealth classes, without a detailed understanding of the other classes and archetypes in the game (not meant offensive).
I believe is that many of the destruction of class only has his full function on level 40. for example the addition of a knock down ranged to the SW me sounds functional on a tier 4 environment. but they have it on tier 2. Ranged Knock down its try balance to the marauder Pulls. marauder has bad roaming function now what makes people think WL is better because of their burst power aganist no healing people and mobility. overall I think the classes much more easy order to work in solo and destruction needs with greater intensity be in groups to work. but when in groups they do very well.
When start the changes I wish they will be positive and I'd like to everyone agrees even who play with the class understand that was necessary to give a push back. but knowing this game style, I think it will be a disaster.
Coming back to the original topic...I completely disagree with your vision about mechanics issues.
Balancing issues are not about defensive stats, it's about tanks melee mechanics and mdps damage burst, in my opinion.
1) 2h Tanks should lose every defensive privileges, it's not fair that a Tank can dispense same dps than a mdps with a much better survival. This makes no sense. Tanks "dps wannabe" ?? Ok, you run clothes.
2) If a mdps, wh or we for example, have a ridiculous survivability, as it should be, then it MUST have a very high ability to disintegrate enemies. I'm talking about damage per second against squishy targets. In WAR it does not work at all.
These two features about WAR completely distorts the game and classes, because it distorts the principle that TANKS (with shield!!!) > MDPS, MDPS > CASTERS, CASTERS > TANKS.
Or you can read it as follow: MDPS have the task to eliminate opponents casters and should be able to do (in a short time) ONLY if no tank run to the rescue of the caster.
This is a balance!! And only in this situation every class has his specific role.
1) That statement is completely wrong:
- Tanks do not gain a burst potential like a melee DD, except maybe you talk about some DD who stacks thoughness for no reason. The only tanks i could imagine doing "DD-like" damage are very squisshy SM or BO (with focussed offense).
- With FO slotted they have pretty much the same armor value as a medium armored melee DD. Should speccing for defense (e.g. parry/disrupt/dodge through renown, abilities like 100% parry/disrupt) made be unavailable to melee DDs for the same reason? You write that tanks should have zero defense when going "DPS mode", but DDs can still spec for several defensiv options.
- Why should tanks without a shield exactly be debuffed to cloth armor values? Do they get a low AP/long duration AOE detaunt and stealth too?
- Tanks have almost no utility to connect/stay at the target; no charge, no snare/root immunity.
The misused "charge+AP pot" doesn't count, as this crap should have been fixed by mythic a long time ago. Same for certain renown abilities that shouldn't be in the game for the these reasons: they allow archetypes to execute actions they should have no access to and would normally have to rely on others archetypes to help them (e.g. cleanse).
- Tanks lack further utility to bring down a healed target, i.e. incoming healdebuff.
2) Also wrong:
- WH/WE have no low survivability as written above: the best AOE detaunt of all melee DDs (the low AP cost guarantees that it is always ready); at level 40 they get a selfpunt+stagger. Every choppa/slayer has a way lower survivability when going full retard mode + thoughness self debuff due to the tactic.
- Why exactly do you think WH/WE damage is too low (some explanation/tests/numbers compared with other DDs etc.)?
About the rest:
The block chance from shields is almost completely negated by high strength/intelligence/ballistic skill. There is no rael™ big difference in "tankiness" between a shield tank and a 2h tank, when they have the same spec/stats. The shield tank is just the better guard tank and has other shield related options, like "hold the line".
Also: most tanks run around with full duelist set atm, which means they have a 30% damage buff on the target for most of the time.
The statement about melee DDs that should be able to kill any healer (i guess solo) is also wrong; this totally depends on the personal playerskill of the healer: if the healer detaunts or staggers you for instance, there is no way you get him down. If you pop out of stealth and knockdown him without incoming healdebuff while he is healed by several other healers, don't wonder why his HP bar doesn't go under 80% etc. pp.
Seriously, i'm all for strengthening the archetype balance, as i think this is the only way to balance the game without changing it into another boring "everyone can do everything" experience like most modern MMOs.
But your gameplay experience seems to be thightened around playing one of the two stealth classes, without a detailed understanding of the other classes and archetypes in the game (not meant offensive).
I refuse to write a wall of text, sorry, just i notice we're playing a different game if you deny that 2H TANKS dispense a lot of dps maintaining an high survivability and if you deny that mdps are the weakest classes in the game.
The rest of what you wrote is a your wrong interpretation about what i mean.
In my opinion a well balanced pvp game must rotate around this concept: TANKS > MDPS, MDPS > CASTERS, CASTERS > TANK.
If not, every meachanics will be unbalanced.
sydd wrote:
I refuse to write a wall of text, sorry, just i notice we're playing a different game if you deny that 2H TANKS dispense a lot of dps maintaining an high survivability and if you deny that mdps are the weakest classes in the game.
The rest of what you wrote is a your wrong interpretation about what i mean.
In my opinion a well balanced pvp game must rotate around this concept: TANKS > MDPS, MDPS > CASTERS, CASTERS > TANK.
If not, every mechanics will be unbalanced.
This is just my 2 cents. Cya
High survivability is a moot point , cuz of group synergies with guard/challenge and "just" a lot of dps will still give you 0 kills against anyone decent. ( You lack any decent/easy accessible damage morals on a tank , any offensive utility in form of incoming heal debuff-that shitty aura excluded and even the armor debuffs are lower then marauder/WL for example). But if you just want to poop on those scoreboards with them big numbers and 0 kills , be my guest.
Also a well balanced pvp/rvr game isn't balanced around individual counters but rather synergies ( And in War's case there are A LOT).
<Pxl> <Luewee> <Fhc> and many many more!
[Deep and Dry] - Order
[Dark Omen] - Destruction
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