[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[Azarael]

Front line is front line (requires guard) melee healers v2 can't have it all or you've created the most broken class WAR/ROR has ever seen.

Please point out where melee WP has:

- Gap closing tools
- Convenient tools to stick on target
- MDPS-type CC breakers
- Crushing burst damage or indeed strong sustained damage
- Crowd control
- Baseline AoE detaunt

I'll wait.

[bloodi]

Please point out where melee WP has:

- Gap closing tools
- Convenient tools to stick on target
- MDPS-type CC breakers
- Crushing burst damage or indeed strong sustained damage
- Crowd control

I'll wait.

But what about that time where i killed 3 people that had no hands, were underleveled and without gear while being alone?

Thanks to that instance i am pretty much an expert at this class and can safely proclaim that any buff to it will mean the apocalypse.

On a serious note, its amazing how many times i heard the forementioned argument by people who main Grace Wps, the conversation usually follows this scheme:

-"Grace wp is perfectly viable, i do great wth it all the time"

-"Any other class will outperform you in whatever role you are in, be healer or dps"

-"No, i actually do great when we have healers and they guard me"

-"Yeah but any other class would do much better in that situation, would burst better than you and heal more than you, its kinda a wasted slot for a 6 man"

-"Well i want to play fun and not just Kobts+IB+2slayer+wp+rp"

Somehow it always starts with how good they do but when you actually dig a little, turns out its just for fun, how they are able to conciliate this two thoughts, is lost on me.

Oh look, here is exhibit A:

Trust me, WPs with a gap closer would be unstoppable.

Alright Broseph, if you say so.

[BrosephStylin]

Trust me, WPs with a gap closer would be unstoppable.

[Vigfuss]

stuff.

My suggestion was relevant to the discussion. I can only assume from your comments that you don't like my suggestion, but you are not wanting to say why. I will maintain that buffing melee healer's healing output without adjusting it's damage output would be a mistake.

I offered a suggestion that would get you around most of the problems the melee healer has without making it OP.

that said, I would rather leave the class as it was in live.

[BrosephStylin]

Changing the heals is not a good idea. The whole reason grace WP is not a good healer is not because he has bad heals, but because his heals are only active in a melee fight. If anything must be buffed it is the damage.

[Sigimund]

I think that this thread has been excellent so far but must move to the next stage. The same core issues being repeated signals wide agreement on what they are. The suggested solutions have been broadly similar, with the only major disagreements being on the technical points of how the mechanics should work.

So the next step is mechanics. This thread cannot progress without a reality check of what changes are possible with the tools available to the RoR devs.

Sigmar's Radiance - The consensus is that it should heal for more so that the Grace of Sigmar tactic is obsolete.

• What numbers on this ability can be changed? Can the part of the S'R heal that is not damage linked be buffed with the current tools?
• Can the part of the S'R heal that is not damage linked be made to scale with player stats/mastery to keep pace with the progression of caster healers?
• Would there be a technical advantage in implementing this change as a separate healing effect that procced on S'R hit? Is this easier to implement than changing the numbers on S'R?
• Can RoR devs convert abilities from physical to spirit? I personally believe that this option is not a damage neutral change but I would like to know what the technical limits are.

Melee healing needing to work through defenses/armor - This has come up a lot. Divine Assault already ignores armor and any of the suggested S'R changes above reduce the impact of armor/detaunt/guard/toughness without increasing DPS. So, block/parry is the issue then.

• I have mentioned the RP Potent Runes tactic before. Is it within the power of the devs to create or copy such a tactic and make it apply to S'R and DA? DPS Runies are not exactly dominating right now so a minor increase in DPS against defensive tanks is probably acceptable for something that costs a tactic slot and solves a problem with lifetap viability that gets worse at higher ranks.
• There are also abilities in other careers that are undefendable without tactics. Is it technically possible to change abilities like this? This is a more powerful change as DPS focused priests would not have to choose between this effect and other more DPS focused tactics.

Melee WPs need survivability against groups that does not buff 1v1 or Salvation

• Your first suggestion was to make Repent AOE if holding a 2H. It has been pointed out that Guard is still better and that if you get focused by a group of melee AND a group of ranged you will die. So clearly the change is not overpowered and also tanks still have a purpose. It is a start. Is this change technically possible to implement?
• Actual CC immunity scares me with how OP it could become so I do not support it but I assume cloning Juggernaut is technically possible.

To recap and check scope: MAD and force splitting has taught us to think in binary options, full melee Wrath/Grace or Salvation/x casters. It is correct that Wrath/Grace will probably not be a well rounded healer but more of a split DPS/healer. At max rank the difference between a Grace/Wrath lifetap healer and a Wrath/Grace DPS with melee heals is maybe two tactic slots. Melee WP players are typically very determined and single minded, they have to be as the world really is against them. Perhaps the biggest change in thinking will be to evaluate the Grace/Salvation+2H combination, where they regen RF and heal best in melee but still have a few casted heals to throw around while they look for a new target. I definitely also would eventually like to see the Wrath/Grace "beefy MDPS spec with buffs and heals" taken more seriously but that will have to wait until the devs have the capability to redesign whole abilities.

So lastly, as Sigmarpriest and others have pointed out: Melee healers need to be able to heal their groups even when they are out of melee range

• Assuming that gaps in the melee healing approach can be filled with offspec casted heals, the suggestion of a stacking Willpower buff based on Strength that procs during melee combat and decays slowly afterwards makes sense. Is that technically possible to implement?

The majority of posters agree with the issues list. Therefore the mechanism of the change is dictated more by technical considerations. As long as the end result is a melee healer that will heal for competitive amounts, can slot a tactic to keep the healing going when closed down by tanks, can use some casted heals to fill gaps without being stopped by MAD, or spec Wrath if a more DPS oriented hybrid is preferred.

[Dabbart]

So. I've played WP since about 6 months after LIVE launched, and about 9months before it ended. Recently found this place(for which I am so damned grateful). I'm not the greatest player of all time, but I've been around the block with MMOs from Ragnarok to DAoC to WAR and everything in between.

I believe the major points have been listed already, and some very well. my addition to this is such:

There is one major distinction I want to make. There are 2 types of "melee WP" in my mind. 1 who lives in or around melee while healing, and the 2nd who actively attacks in order to heal. Backline WPs are basic and well established.

WP IN melee are quite good. I do it all the time. I have 190somethin str. I attack to keep my RF topped. Smite and Purge are my most utilized attacks. I use MB, since it lets me heal everyone, not just party members, dump a few party heals, a direct HoT, then back into melee again. I survive, because I have stacked the hell out of my wounds and defenses. I only have 500 willpower, but I can sustain and continue healing long after the 2handed WP next to me has been melted down.

Now, this only works in certain instances where you have an actual front line of combat. Most of the time, one group is getting bum rushed by the other.

Just trying to say, that just because you can't do EVERYTHING doesn't mean you have to TRY to. I don't believe WPs were ever intended to do serious melee DPS outside of PvE. At which, they are Gods. But so what? You don't need to have DPS to be helpful and efficient in melee.

I see 2 handed WPs all the time. And I love to inspect them. Those that have stacked STR or WS tali's get melted and tend to be generally useless. I just had a premade with one. he had a tank gaurding him and me as a dedicated healer. I couldn't keep him up, and our tank was getting smashed as well! Why? because he tried to play a WP like a DPS, and he charged the enemy. They saw a healer running right at them, and melted him. I sit right behind the front line, and survived against the exact same enemies for nearly the entire SC.

The WPs that have toughness/wounds with defensive minded equipment can do very, very well. It's all in what you are actually trying to do. And you need to be alive to do this.

TLDR; I think the issue is with the players that want to have a healer able to do serious DPS. Instead of playing the class as it is supposed to be. RAW in the warhammer world, WPs could fight decently, but it was their supportive magic and their survivability that made them so damned dangerous.

[Scottx125]

Spoiler:

Please point out where melee WP has:

- Gap closing tools
- Convenient tools to stick on target
- MDPS-type CC breakers
- Crushing burst damage or indeed strong sustained damage
- Crowd control

I'll wait.

But what about that time where i killed 3 people that had no hands, were underleveled and without gear while being alone?

Thanks to that instance i am pretty much an expert at this class and can safely proclaim that any buff to it will mean the apocalypse.

On a serious note, its amazing how many times i heard the forementioned argument by people who main Grace Wps, the conversation usually follows this scheme:

-"Grace wp is perfectly viable, i do great wth it all the time"

-"Any other class will outperform you in whatever role you are in, be healer or dps"

-"No, i actually do great when we have healers and they guard me"

-"Yeah but any other class would do much better in that situation, would burst better than you and heal more than you, its kinda a wasted slot for a 6 man"

-"Well i want to play fun and not just Kobts+IB+2slayer+wp+rp"

Somehow it always starts with how good they do but when you actually dig a little, turns out its just for fun, how they are able to conciliate this two thoughts, is lost on me.

Oh look, here is exhibit A:

Trust me, WPs with a gap closer would be unstoppable.

Alright Broseph, if you say so.

Evidently not by what you just said, and I play Grace WP and refuse to play as a healbot for my team. Grace WP is about getting into the front line of combat and dealing damage whilst building RF through those attacks to heal both your team and yourself. This at the moment is not viable because the WP in melee gets wrecked, why? Because its base DPS is too low to be of any use on the front lines due to low strength and weapon skill, its wounds/toughness is too low to last long enough on the front lines and if you get knocked down or stunned, you are dead no questions asked.

Spoiler:

So. I've played WP since about 6 months after LIVE launched, and about 9months before it ended. Recently found this place(for which I am so damned grateful). I'm not the greatest player of all time, but I've been around the block with MMOs from Ragnarok to DAoC to WAR and everything in between.

I believe the major points have been listed already, and some very well. my addition to this is such:

There is one major distinction I want to make. There are 2 types of "melee WP" in my mind. 1 who lives in or around melee while healing, and the 2nd who actively attacks in order to heal. Backline WPs are basic and well established.

WP IN melee are quite good. I do it all the time. I have 190somethin str. I attack to keep my RF topped. Smite and Purge are my most utilized attacks. I use MB, since it lets me heal everyone, not just party members, dump a few party heals, a direct HoT, then back into melee again. I survive, because I have stacked the hell out of my wounds and defenses. I only have 500 willpower, but I can sustain and continue healing long after the 2handed WP next to me has been melted down.

Now, this only works in certain instances where you have an actual front line of combat. Most of the time, one group is getting bum rushed by the other.

Just trying to say, that just because you can't do EVERYTHING doesn't mean you have to TRY to. I don't believe WPs were ever intended to do serious melee DPS outside of PvE. At which, they are Gods. But so what? You don't need to have DPS to be helpful and efficient in melee.

I see 2 handed WPs all the time. And I love to inspect them. Those that have stacked STR or WS tali's get melted and tend to be generally useless. I just had a premade with one. he had a tank gaurding him and me as a dedicated healer. I couldn't keep him up, and our tank was getting smashed as well! Why? because he tried to play a WP like a DPS, and he charged the enemy. They saw a healer running right at them, and melted him. I sit right behind the front line, and survived against the exact same enemies for nearly the entire SC.

The WPs that have toughness/wounds with defensive minded equipment can do very, very well. It's all in what you are actually trying to do. And you need to be alive to do this.

TLDR; I think the issue is with the players that want to have a healer able to do serious DPS. Instead of playing the class as it is supposed to be. RAW in the warhammer world, WPs could fight decently, but it was their supportive magic and their survivability that made them so damned dangerous.

No, there's a difference, there are 3 types of WP, full heal, supportive heal and full dps. Full DPS should bring the WP closer to a DPS class damage output but should leave some utility abilities as it is still a support class. Supportive heal should allow the WP to survive on the front lines dealing damage whilst also giving him the ability to heal team mates and himself, however the DPS of this WP is generally acceptable due to the fact Grace WP generally survive quite well in melee (atleast on live they did) and generally outlasted opponents. Heal WP is obvious, full heal with a few ranged attacks. The issue isnt people wanting full DPS (as that is what the salvation tree does), but it is instead balancing the support healer Grace tree so that it is viable, yet not OP.

[Dabbart]

No, there's a difference, there are 3 types of WP, full heal, supportive heal and full dps. Full DPS should bring the WP closer to a DPS class damage output but should leave some utility abilities as it is still a support class. Supportive heal should allow the WP to survive on the front lines dealing damage whilst also giving him the ability to heal team mates and himself, however the DPS of this WP is generally acceptable due to the fact Grace WP generally survive quite well in melee (atleast on live they did) and generally outlasted opponents. Heal WP is obvious, full heal with a few ranged attacks. The issue isnt people wanting full DPS (as that is what the salvation tree does), but it is instead balancing the support healer Grace tree so that it is viable, yet not OP.

Um. No. A WP that wants to attempt DPS shouldn't do as much damage as a slayer, WH, etc. At least in my opinion. Since that DPS will also be partially heals, as well as the basic class abilities. That'd just be crazy. As already said in this post, a DPS healer should theoretically give half the damage of a DPS and half the healing of a healer. if you can provide the same DPS as a WH, and the same healing as a RP... Why play any other class? You're supposed to have deficiencies. That is why you group.

And I said there was 3 types of WP. I said there are 2 types of "melee" WPs plus the backline healer. Which you agree with. The Melee are those that want to support and those that want to be DPS machines. If you want to run DPS WP that's fine! You however need to be aware that you don't count as a healer for the group imo. You can help with some heals, but you're not the healer that the general community expects. So for the group to function as it needs to, one could argue that the melee WP needs another 2 healers in said group to be viable. In which case, your argument for similar DPS comes into play. I just happen to disagree with that. Which again, is fine:P

Personally, if I want serious DPS I play a DPS class. I play WP cause I like the support style with superior survivability. I don't believe a WP that requires damage to be effective will ever truly accomplish this in an ORvR setting, and will find it difficult in SC's. The game is just stacked against them in a fundamental way. Now. Can you tweak the rules to make this possible? Ofc! But I can't help but feel like the argument is a little twisted towards trying to enhance the WPs DPS. I happen to believe that DPS was never the intended role of WP. They are a frontline healer. Not all frontliners need to do damage.

If I could wave a magic wand, I would give them the AoE detaunt with 2-handers, have Charged Fury tactic give extra RF for 2-handers(15 instead of 10), and change Sigmar's Radiance to spirit damage. This should make a 2-handed far more viable, even w/o Divine Fury or Fanatacism. Allow you to detaunt to survive, run in thwack away to regain 55 RF per Sigmar's Radiance attack, and I think Sam's your uncle. All w/o trying to increase WP DPS dramatically.

I think that will provide the happy area for WPs. W/o using DF or fanaticism, you cast for the majority of your heals. The time that you need/want to be in melee to regain RF so you can spam cast, when you attack you are STILL providing heals for your group, not as large, but enough to tide them over while you regain RF to cast more healing spells. This would be how I would fix it.

The key to this, will be baby steps of changes. But who knows.

[Scottx125]

No, there's a difference, there are 3 types of WP, full heal, supportive heal and full dps. Full DPS should bring the WP closer to a DPS class damage output but should leave some utility abilities as it is still a support class. Supportive heal should allow the WP to survive on the front lines dealing damage whilst also giving him the ability to heal team mates and himself, however the DPS of this WP is generally acceptable due to the fact Grace WP generally survive quite well in melee (atleast on live they did) and generally outlasted opponents. Heal WP is obvious, full heal with a few ranged attacks. The issue isnt people wanting full DPS (as that is what the salvation tree does), but it is instead balancing the support healer Grace tree so that it is viable, yet not OP.

Um. No. A WP that wants to attempt DPS shouldn't do as much damage as a slayer, WH, etc. At least in my opinion. Since that DPS will also be partially heals, as well as the basic class abilities. That'd just be crazy. As already said in this post, a DPS healer should theoretically give half the damage of a DPS and half the healing of a healer. if you can provide the same DPS as a WH, and the same healing as a RP... Why play any other class? You're supposed to have deficiencies. That is why you group.

And I said there was 3 types of WP. I said there are 2 types of "melee" WPs plus the backline healer. Which you agree with. The Melee are those that want to support and those that want to be DPS machines. If you want to run DPS WP that's fine! You however need to be aware that you don't count as a healer for the group imo. You can help with some heals, but you're not the healer that the general community expects. So for the group to function as it needs to, one could argue that the melee WP needs another 2 healers in said group to be viable. In which case, your argument for similar DPS comes into play. I just happen to disagree with that. Which again, is fine:P

Personally, if I want serious DPS I play a DPS class. I play WP cause I like the support style with superior survivability. I don't believe a WP that requires damage to be effective will ever truly accomplish this in an ORvR setting, and will find it difficult in SC's. The game is just stacked against them in a fundamental way. Now. Can you tweak the rules to make this possible? Ofc! But I can't help but feel like the argument is a little twisted towards trying to enhance the WPs DPS. I happen to believe that DPS was never the intended role of WP. They are a frontline healer. Not all frontliners need to do damage.

If I could wave a magic wand, I would give them the AoE detaunt with 2-handers, have Charged Fury tactic give extra RF for 2-handers(15 instead of 10), and change Sigmar's Radiance to spirit damage. This should make a 2-handed far more viable, even w/o Divine Fury or Fanatacism. Allow you to detaunt to survive, run in thwack away to regain 55 RF per Sigmar's Radiance attack, and I think Sam's your uncle. All w/o trying to increase WP DPS dramatically.

I think that will provide the happy area for WPs. W/o using DF or fanaticism, you cast for the majority of your heals. The time that you need/want to be in melee to regain RF so you can spam cast, when you attack you are STILL providing heals for your group, not as large, but enough to tide them over while you regain RF to cast more healing spells. This would be how I would fix it.

The key to this, will be baby steps of changes. But who knows.

And that is the problem, a melee support healer should not need healers to keep himself going other than himself. What is the point of having a melee DPS healer, when he can't even heal himself sufficiently let alone the rest of the team. Which is why I like to entertain the idea that the WP DPS to HEAL ration is 40/60, he does adequate damage to make him useful on the front line whilst also healing enough to warrant having a Grace WP in the group. And because the WP is taking a risk of going onto the front line instead of hiding back with a book, he should be rewarded for that risk, instead with the current system he is not, he is punished because his melee heals are weaker compared to that of a book healer, and the damage and survivability is sub-par. Now whilst this thread is not on about DPS WP, the DPS spec aims to bring a WP closer to a DPS role compared to a healer role, whilst it can still heal, its heals are not very effective and sacrifices its heals for greater damage. So whilst a book healer would be (all % rations follow this DMG/HEAL) 20/80, a melee support would be 50/50 and a DPS spec would be 80/20. Now obviously this is simplified but we need to find a solution to make the support melee healer viable as 50/50 means it is 50% weaker in both areas, and in this game it punishes any class with hybrid mechanics.

Now I see what you are saying with not having any class spec too much into different things, but that is what a Hybrid class does. WP's 3 specs could be also be viewed as the holy trinity, healer, tank/support, dps. And with classes that already fit into those areas they have more choices, its either more heal, tankier, dps solo or dps aoe. But because the WP is a melee class, its limited to 3 acceptable areas, more heal (its class type), tankier/support (using melee and heals to outlast and eventually kill opponents whilst helping the team) or more solo dps.