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Re: 2H BG needs access to a knockdown
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:00 am
by Uchoo
Guys, this is a thread about Blackguards. If you want to see changes to your classes in positive ways, you should start by backing this, so we have more precedent.
Steps at a time, friends.
Anyways, I want to chime in on the whole tactic idea. So you guys want BG's to use a tactic slot from a spec'd tactic to make a spec'd ability into a knockdown? Doesn't that seem too much? Why not just make Blade of Ruin into the knockdown and in the future if we have a good idea for the tactic, we talk about it then?
Re: 2H BG needs access to a knockdown
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:01 am
by Uchoo
Mez wrote:Uchoo wrote:
What and what and what? RR80 has nothing to do with the amount of points you have.
what
You get a point at 40, 50, 60 and 70. RR80 gives you an extra level on all of your abilities and an effective level, which is why I was disputing your "80+" statement.
Re: 2H BG needs access to a knockdown
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:02 am
by Coryphaus
Nishka wrote:BG is not fine, but mirroring sucks... There must be another way.
Its not mirroring, it dosnt need to be a mirror, just a knock down that requires you to have a 2H otherwise, SnB BG's will get access to 2 KD's
It would be like if bg had no snare if it went 2h and the op asked to give bg a snare, would that be mirroring just because a majority of the classes in the game have snares?
Re: 2H BG needs access to a knockdown
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:03 am
by Uchoo
Nishka wrote:BG is not fine, but mirroring sucks... There must be another way.
I think if you played a Blackguard and an Ironbreaker, you would have a better understanding of their significant differences, even if Blackguards were given the 2H knockdown.
I completely understand your dislike for mirroring, but some things really need to be mirrored for balance sake.
Re: 2H BG needs access to a knockdown
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:46 am
by Nishka
Uchoo wrote:Nishka wrote:BG is not fine, but mirroring sucks... There must be another way.
I think if you played a Blackguard and an Ironbreaker, you would have a better understanding of their significant differences, even if Blackguards were given the 2H knockdown.
I completely understand your dislike for mirroring, but some things really need to be mirrored for balance sake.
I did play both ib and bg. And I liked bg more. Tried a full anti-mage spec. 100% disrupt is something.
i've played all classes in WAR, many of them to 40, and never felt useless or gimped be it BG magus SM (my first char ever) or engineer. That's why I believe that balance problem in WAR is exaggerated.
Re: 2H BG needs access to a knockdown
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:29 am
by Uchoo
Nishka wrote:
I did play both ib and bg. And I liked bg more. Tried a full anti-mage spec. 100% disrupt is something.
i've played all classes in WAR, many of them to 40, and never felt useless or gimped be it BG magus SM (my first char ever) or engineer. That's why I believe that balance problem in WAR is exaggerated.
A lot of balance issues are exaggerated, especially in a group. However, it's hard to deny that the 2H Blackguard playstyle doesn't offer too much. Giving them a knockdown makes that playstyle a lot more valuable without removing any of the unique aspects of the class, and at the same time not offering any new tools to the already useful SnB specs.
Re: 2H BG needs access to a knockdown
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:52 am
by CarlistRieekan
TenTonHammer wrote:Its no small secret that 2h black guard is inferior to SnB blackguard in many ways, you give up a lot of things and get little in return and whatever 2h bg can do, dps spec snb bg can do more or less much better.
However as it is right now, with the changes made to SM and black orcs kd's; BG is the only tank in the game now who dosnt have access to or can spec into a knockdown while using a 2h and this should be remedied if nothing else but for consistency
The simplest solution is to make blade of ruin into a mirror of cave in, which would also encourage bg's to spec an ability that they would otherwise never touch
While im well aware that 5s KD with spiteful slam is far superior to a 3s kd, it would be a big step in making the playstyle more viable, any other changes 2h bg needs to be considered "equal" to SnB bg can be discussed at a later time
I would actually change prerequisities for the Spiteful Slam to:
Requires Block
or
Requires Parry when wielding Great Weapon
Pros:
- SnB Blackguards do not recieve the 2nd KD.
- 2h Blackguards are encouraged to use Guard and the middle tree suddenly becomes more viable for them.
- Adds synergy between Elite Training and Spiteful Slam for 2h BGs, so KD becomes somewhat less random.
Cons:
- I don't know how difficult is the implementation of the above-metioned conditions.
Re: 2H BG needs access to a knockdown
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:30 am
by Nishka
You know what? Give 2hander BG a kd. This will bring more 2hander tanks to destruction which is good for us orderlings.
Oh and please, buff dps shaman just a little
Re: 2H BG needs access to a knockdown
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:22 am
by Nishka
Another solution is: make every tank classes's kd to require shield.
After all, tanks were supposed to have low-damage but lots of control and if you want more damage you're supposed to give up some of your control.
Re: 2H BG needs access to a knockdown
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:40 am
by Vilhelmina
Nishka wrote:Another solution is: make every tank classes's kd to require shield.
After all, tanks were supposed to have low-damage but lots of control and if you want more damage you're supposed to give up some of your control.
Normally, I would agree with you on that, it makes perfect sense. But lore-wise, the BG have never wielded SnB, they've always been armed with a 2H Halberd. Same with SMs and their monstrous 2H sword. I guess they were given SnB in the game to fit the role of a tank.
So for the sake of immersion, I wouldn't be upset if either of the elven tanks getting KDs with a 2H. Since they'd both look badass swinging their 2h and KD'ing oppenents around them.
But then we'll get the KotBS/Chosen moaning next.
I guess game balance is more important than being accurate in the lore.