WE and WHs changes made the game booring any fixes?

[Fenris78]

I agree the two pounces are far too powerful for a high-bursting DPS class, that also got stealth and escape tools to set the fight's pace as they wish.

Consider removing the pounces entirely, making on par with the WH (which got none, and also lost the speed increase on Oil), and give WE an AoE opener just like the WH to be able to exit from stealth with generated combo points (I remember it was this specific point which led to the infamous pounce opener on the WE)...

And yes, make self-absorb to 400, 600 is just insane for a core tactic (same value as the 8-points tree tactic on the SM, which also need avoidances investment, unlike the WE tactic which need zero investment to work well).

About double HD, I consider it should stay, because 1.Need to invest into Mastery skill and 2.Game need a class to really counter healing, since with detaunt it's actually the only way to defeat a healer and counter the huge heal output.
No other class got access to this, and it's way harder to kill a healer without 75% heal debuff.

I also encountered such defensive builded healers with my WH, that even with double HD they outhealed my damage without a sweat. In this case, the AP steal bullets is needed, but then I still dont know if that would had worked well...

[saupreusse]

I believe for the solo and noob experience it would be beneficial to turn stealthers down somewhat (lower kd duration, implement a proper stealth detection and stealth breaking system, remove the ability to go tanky while still dealing tons of dmg). The lasts point would even be beneficial for 6v6. Am I the only one who thinks that these classes and their kits are overtuned?

[nocturnalguest]

I believe for the solo and noob experience it would be beneficial to turn stealthers down somewhat (lower kd duration, implement a proper stealth detection and stealth breaking system, remove the ability to go tanky while still dealing tons of dmg). The lasts point would even be beneficial for 6v6. Am I the only one who thinks that these classes and their kits are overtuned?

There have been some good discussions on forums already about that within past year. It stuck in my mind that no general conclusion has come out of how exactly to tweak their solo specs to not hurt their efficiency in other game modes. I dont think anyone knowledgable can actually argue that stealthers could use a tonedown in terms of their solo roaming capacities, but like many of us (those whos main gameplay is not solo roaming) have said already - its down to game mechanics and combat design, current combat design doesnt support balance in solo roaming at all, it either has to use modern approach with any class being selfsufficient (selfsustain tools, escape tools, cc etc) or stay unbalanced dice roll to keep unique unmirrored group flavor. I cant see any efficient thing to do here besides picking one of two, halfmeasures im convinced could do way more harm then good and are way too complex to thinktank, develop, implement.

Stealth detection and stealth breaking system is imo could be some cool general direction and also pretty harmless one for all the game modes. Do you have any ideas how it could work? (asking out of simple curiosity)

As for 6v6, they dont play in their solo specs there, they go full dmg. You can check that on killboard yourself. Both WE/WH has places in group comps, very decent pick for 6v6, some teams even build comps around those classes to some extent, so i see no issues with WE/WH viability for 6v6.

[saupreusse]

I believe for the solo and noob experience it would be beneficial to turn stealthers down somewhat (lower kd duration, implement a proper stealth detection and stealth breaking system, remove the ability to go tanky while still dealing tons of dmg). The lasts point would even be beneficial for 6v6. Am I the only one who thinks that these classes and their kits are overtuned?

There have been some good discussions on forums already about that within past year. It stuck in my mind that no general conclusion has come out of how exactly to tweak their solo specs to not hurt their efficiency in other game modes. I dont think anyone knowledgable can actually argue that stealthers could use a tonedown in terms of their solo roaming capacities, but like many of us (those whos main gameplay is not solo roaming) have said already - its down to game mechanics and combat design, current combat design doesnt support balance in solo roaming at all, it either has to use modern approach with any class being selfsufficient (selfsustain tools, escape tools, cc etc) or stay unbalanced dice roll to keep unique unmirrored group flavor. I cant see any efficient thing to do here besides picking one of two, halfmeasures im convinced could do way more harm then good and are way too complex to thinktank, develop, implement.

Stealth detection and stealth breaking system is imo could be some cool general direction and also pretty harmless one for all the game modes. Do you have any ideas how it could work? (asking out of simple curiosity)

As for 6v6, they dont play in their solo specs there, they go full dmg. You can check that on killboard yourself. Both WE/WH has places in group comps, very decent pick for 6v6, some teams even build comps around those classes to some extent, so i see no issues with WE/WH viability for 6v6.

Two specific suggestions:
Reduce knockdown time from 3 to 2 seconds (this wont hurt their party specs because there they have others to apply cc).

Introduce a similar stealth system to live:
Stealth may break on receiving dmg and high initiative values actually matter a lot more to stealth detection. On live you could stack ini super high as tank and spot most of them when they were close.

Edit: make restealthing impossible if you're under fire from enemies. Even if you have the dmg immunity or disrupt. It's not fair that they have a 'get out of jail free' card. Make them pay for their bad decisions like every other class.

[Bozzax]

I believe for the s

Two specific suggestions:
Reduce knockdown time from 3 to 2 seconds (this wont hurt their party specs because there they have others to apply cc).

Introduce a similar stealth system to live:
Stealth may break on receiving dmg and high initiative values actually matter a lot more to stealth detection. On live you could stack ini super high as tank and spot most of them when they were close.

Stealth % breaking stealth of same realm would be a massive improvement. Super lame to get ganked by 2-5 WE/WH that open up on you at the same time

[saupreusse]

Two specific suggestions:
Reduce knockdown time from 3 to 2 seconds (this wont hurt their party specs because there they have others to apply cc).

Introduce a similar stealth system to live:
Stealth may break on receiving dmg and high initiative values actually matter a lot more to stealth detection. On live you could stack ini super high as tank and spot most of them when they were close.

Stealth % breaking stealth of same realm would be a massive improvement. Super lame to get ganked by 2-5 WE/WH that open up on you at the same time

Stealthing and restealthing should be much more volatile in general for how big the benefits are. I like your suggestion, see also the edit of my other post for an additional suggestion about restelathing.

[nocturnalguest]

Two specific suggestions:
Reduce knockdown time from 3 to 2 seconds (this wont hurt their party specs because there they have others to apply cc).

Introduce a similar stealth system to live:
Stealth may break on receiving dmg and high initiative values actually matter a lot more to stealth detection. On live you could stack ini super high as tank and spot most of them when they were close.

Edit: make restealthing impossible if you're under fire from enemies. Even if you have the dmg immunity or disrupt. It's not fair that they have a 'get out of jail free' card. Make them pay for their bad decisions like every other class.

Which exact skills you mean as KD? In general knockdown suggestion is no go, a fact that they bring none conditional none mechanic tied KD with them previously was quite a game changer for building comps and kinda is now (mostly because tanks like kotbs/chosen and to some extent ib/bo got so many more options for builds). Issue is that you need to have as many seconds as possible on your go because kill window is extremely narrow, if one of your tanks punt and the other KDs other enemy tank then you have only two options left - punting tank KDs or DPS KD themselves, tank who used punt uses assist and position itself in a way that it can reach MA's target asap (which is not so easy to do, case as you can see in a video i linked in this topic that KD is not coming right away (important note, Teinhala is absolute toptier shotcaller, gl following so many orders so quick while still performing perfectly your own stuff) and issue is that then your tanks go for CC enemy tanks also know they go for it and are actively trying to avoid their CC with their own movement just as everyone else is trying to counter enemy go call) and then uses KD for focused target. Usually, in ideal world it leads to wasting important seconds and lowers kill window vs. option that DPS KDs itself (-1 GCD for dmg, which is also quite a decision, for example you dont see many KDs from WE in that clip).
Having an ability to reliably KD on your own burst rotation sometimes is a very big thing for groups. Lowering it even by a mere second changes way too much for group play.
One of the most complex decisions in this regards comp wise is on order side and its kotbs dropping KD.

As for stealth, i dont recall straight away exact mechanics, but i do know for a fact that RoR team (dalen if i dont missremember) already shared all the tech data on it like 2-3 years ago and even here on forums. It was reworked along stuff then ini scaling become linear. What you generally describe is how current system exactly works. Need to look up a bit and search dalen posts and get exact data to look into cause without exact data its pretty pointless to continue discussing it. I missread, i thought you've got some fresh out of box ideas on this one, my bad.

[saupreusse]

Two specific suggestions:
Reduce knockdown time from 3 to 2 seconds (this wont hurt their party specs because there they have others to apply cc).

Introduce a similar stealth system to live:
Stealth may break on receiving dmg and high initiative values actually matter a lot more to stealth detection. On live you could stack ini super high as tank and spot most of them when they were close.

Edit: make restealthing impossible if you're under fire from enemies. Even if you have the dmg immunity or disrupt. It's not fair that they have a 'get out of jail free' card. Make them pay for their bad decisions like every other class.

Which exact skills you mean as KD? In general knockdown suggestion is no go, a fact that they bring none conditional none mechanic tied KD with them previously was quite a game changer for building comps and kinda is now (mostly because tanks like kotbs/chosen and to some extent ib/bo got so many more options for builds). Issue is that you need to have as many seconds as possible on your go because kill window is extremely narrow, if one of your tanks punt and the other KDs other enemy tank then you have only two options left - punting tank KDs or DPS KD themselves, tank who used punt uses assist and position itself in a way that it can reach MA's target asap (which is not so easy to do, case as you can see in a video i linked in this topic that KD is not coming right away (important note, Teinhala is absolute toptier shotcaller, gl following so many orders so quick while still performing perfectly your own stuff) and issue is that then your tanks go for CC enemy tanks also know they go for it and are actively trying to avoid their CC with their own movement just as everyone else is trying to counter enemy go call) and then uses KD for focused target. Usually, in ideal world it leads to wasting important seconds and lowers kill window vs. option that DPS KDs itself (-1 GCD for dmg, which is also quite a decision, for example you dont see many KDs from WE in that clip).
Having an ability to reliably KD on your own burst rotation sometimes is a very big thing for groups. Lowering it even by a mere second changes way too much for group play.
One of the most complex decisions in this regards comp wise is on order side and its kotbs dropping KD.

As for stealth, i dont recall straight away exact mechanics, but i do know for a fact that RoR team (dalen if i dont missremember) already shared all the tech data on it like 2-3 years ago and even here on forums. It was reworked along stuff then ini scaling become linear. What you generally describe is how current system exactly works. Need to look up a bit and search dalen posts and get exact data to look into cause without exact data its pretty pointless to continue discussing it. I missread, i thought you've got some fresh out of box ideas on this one, my bad.

No need for out of the box thinking when we basically can just tone stealth down with some very general ideas. Ill write a balance suggestion because i feel like this is the wrong place to keep such a discussion going.