Choppa Pull, fix or delete it?

[Vri]

Finally some good forum drama.

We've got a full house of the usual suspects,
1. Nerf GTDC
2. No nerf Rampage
3. No remove slayer ID
4. No destro tanks too good
5. Mirror everything ez
6. Git gud
7. Destro winning too much
8. No order winning too much
9. Order mains playing Destro
10. No Destro mains playing Order

Been quite stale for sometime now.

It has been a spicy week and i am very thankful.

[Farrul]

sorry I don't want any hard feelings and I understand it isn't easy to balance things

I'm just saying it seems like it would be hard to justify anything that helps Order out at the moment because they're winning by a very large margin it seems, and you can come up with reasons for that but the question is why make it harder for the side that's losing the most scenarios and is constantly 4-0 campaign status in RVR, didn't win LOTD etc. That simply doesn't make sense. I'm all for trying out changes though or new content being added and appreciate that this game is free and has provded me untold hours of entertainment.

Not that long ago Destro had the numbers and were dominating, nowdays i'm not sure and numbers seem to fluctuate(e.g for the past few hours a pop advantage destro). If a fix/balancing is implemented it most likely won't come immediately, by the time something happens the pop could easily have shifted again.

Anyway, we're discussing how to fix a bugged/broken ability or replace it, it doesn't necessarily have to be a nerf(in terms of strength) for choppas but less abusive for sure. It's a dumb ability which is spammed and abused in orvr, causing all kinds of weird stuff and bugs/frustration.

Choppa is my main character.
I also think that GTDC should be removed from the game but on the condition of how slayer ID is removed from the game.
I would like to remind all ignorant forum speakers and those who do not know the classes that GTDC is the equivalent of slayer ID and not, as some think, GTDC is the equivalent of Rampage.
The exclusion of Rampage from the game is a completely separate issue. Which of course should have happened a long time ago.

Another solution is to exclude GTDC from the game but replace it with something like slayer ID as Urummuk proposed a year ago.
Of course Rampage in this case should also be removed or transformed in a reasonable way.
Choppa CF should be moved high into the DaHitta tree instead.

If it is removed it needs to be replaced with something, ID mirror you say? I have no opinion because i do not play Slayer and hence ignorant how it would fit the Choppa class or how it would affect overall balance. Someone knowledgable about both these classes in a direct comparison ability for ability and with the faction vs faction balance in mind could give valuable input.

Just keep in mind that Order got far less melee(tanks) than Destro and making the choppa too raw(i.e for every slayer at least 3 choppas can be observed in the lakes) wouldn't be a good idea unless Order tanks are included in the equation.

[Sulorie]

Just keep in mind that Order got far less melee(tanks) than Destro and making the choppa too raw(i.e for every slayer at least 3 choppas can be observed in the lakes) wouldn't be a good idea unless Order tanks are included in the equation.

Why would we adjust classes based on the fact, that order pugs tend to play range classes? Both sides have viable classes per archtype, so if one sides loses because of too few front line classes, players have to fix it, not devs.

[malark]

sorry I don't want any hard feelings and I understand it isn't easy to balance things

I'm just saying it seems like it would be hard to justify anything that helps Order out at the moment because they're winning by a very large margin it seems, and you can come up with reasons for that but the question is why make it harder for the side that's losing the most scenarios and is constantly 4-0 campaign status in RVR, didn't win LOTD etc. That simply doesn't make sense. I'm all for trying out changes though or new content being added and appreciate that this game is free and has provded me untold hours of entertainment.

Not that long ago Destro had the numbers and were dominating, nowdays i'm not sure and numbers seem to fluctuate(e.g for the past few hours a pop advantage destro). If a fix/balancing is implemented it most likely won't come immediately, by the time something happens the pop could easily have shifted again.

Anyway, we're discussing how to fix a bugged/broken ability or replace it, it doesn't necessarily have to be a nerf(in terms of strength) for choppas but less abusive for sure. It's a dumb ability which is spammed and abused in orvr, causing all kinds of weird stuff and bugs/frustration.

I hear that but i've been playing for about a year maybe more i've leveled 3 destro characters to 75 or over and I can confidently say other than relatively brief spikes it seems like Order has a much easier time of it as far as winning and gearing up, obviously particularly lately, and the style of play to go up against is very grief-ing. You only have to log on, play for a while or look at the stats. You're obviously entitlted to your opinion but in my opinion this being changed on it's own to be something less effective would show a clear bias considering the game's current and recent memory environment and you'd only be kidding yourself if you think it wouldn't cause some bemusement among destro players.

[Panel]

Personal preference is to fix it not delete it. Every order player is subject to GTDC- free kill - but only destro players that use block/parry are subject to rampage i.e tanks/melee. Rampage does not increase the damage of slayer abilities, it allows it to bypass block/parry. Even then the damage has to get through armour/toughness/ resists. Against toons that dont use block/parry rampage does nothing. Against a sorc for example a flurry that does 500 will do 500 with rampage or without it. I think ppl are are over estimating the strength of both GTDC and Rampage. GTDC needs to start obeying los and terrain/buildings and it wouldn't be such an issue.

[Earthcake]

Just keep in mind that Order got far less melee(tanks) than Destro and making the choppa too raw(i.e for every slayer at least 3 choppas can be observed in the lakes) wouldn't be a good idea unless Order tanks are included in the equation.

Why would we adjust classes based on the fact, that order pugs tend to play range classes? Both sides have viable classes per archtype, so if one sides loses because of too few front line classes, players have to fix it, not devs.

That's not true. Remember when there was about 3 goblins total on the whole server ?
And then suddently 60% of destro were playing goblins and there were 300 of them in each zone ?

What happenend there ? When they were weak, noone would play them. When they were OP, everybody would have one.
Of course devs can shift class distribution, it has been seen in each and every game ever, and here also again and again.

Same for tanks, if destro tanks > order tanks, tanks "lovers" will play them on destro.

[Farrul]

Just keep in mind that Order got far less melee(tanks) than Destro and making the choppa too raw(i.e for every slayer at least 3 choppas can be observed in the lakes) wouldn't be a good idea unless Order tanks are included in the equation.

Why would we adjust classes based on the fact, that order pugs tend to play range classes? Both sides have viable classes per archtype, so if one sides loses because of too few front line classes, players have to fix it, not devs.

The average player does not have the patience/will to fix anything if they perceive it is an unfair situation proven by x-realming ( can't blame them game is for entertainment purpose, shouldn't be a second job).

If under too much pressure they will likely crumble and give up, perhaps this is exactly what the game has needed though for a long time to reveal flaws, no doubt it comes with risks.

All classes are of course viable but it's not the same as being balanced amongst themselves or equivalent in capability, balance adjustments are sometimes needed to keep players realistically interested in the game(i.e player retention).

[Farrul]

Same for tanks, if destro tanks > order tanks, tanks "lovers" will play them on destro.

I agree but there could be other causes for tank shortage on Order than just in terms of balance strength, i don't wish to go off-topic but here is my theory for each of them:

Kotbs:

Spoiler:

This tank lacks diversity of play, more specifically a viable damage spec(not utility support dps). Fix that and i'm sure it would become a lot more popular(like the Chosen mirror having the option to spec for damage). Utility can be nerfed a bit to compensate.

SM:

Spoiler:

stands up good to the BO mirror and is more meta than BO due to WW (BO is just tankier though in SnB, perhaps fix the crappy 13 point in Vaul tree). However what i think SM truly needs to make it more popular is an aesthetical face-lift, give it some proper plate-armor and replace all those robes and uglier helms in several sets (good skins are everywhere, Caledor/Palace Guards etc, coud re-skin a few BG skins with a lighter palette).

IB:

Spoiler:

The only Order tank i think is in need of direct buffs, more specifically increased Oath buff duration(from 10 to 15 seconds) and slight improved resource managagment to better stand up to the BG mirror(rising anger need to be baseline and not a tactic, BG still has the advantage of the channeling attack regenerating hate )

[tazdingo]

(BO is just tankier though in SnB, perhaps fix the crappy 13 point in Vaul tree)

bo/sm mid 13 is awesome, ppl need to stop sleeping on that

also gtdc is annoying as all hell but you'd have to replace it with something very good. rampage is extremely oppressive

[Sulorie]

rampage is extremely oppressive

Compare gtdc with ID, not rampage.

You should compare rampage with choppa ap gain finisher at 5pts, which makes the gap much more obvious.