Return of Reckoning

lyncher12 wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:51 am fair how? seems like that was the start of catering to rdps, something that didn't necessarily need to happen.

Dont worry it's not like all ranged DPS outclass the melee DPS in damage by 200 DPS or so already, so it's fair in the long run... Oh wait

Ysaran wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:36 am

detrap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:35 am

Ysaran wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:03 pm
Even tho you are not a primary target there's still AoE damage that you need to soak up. Do you know the amount of spam that Engie and SW can bring up?
There are skill locked behinde 2h requirement and now you can't use it. The main BG wb build (Crimson Death) is dead. And so many other builds. It stupid that you have requirment that you can't fulfill. Just take away those skills.
2h tanks in city aren't trying to "face tank multiple WBs", they are just trying to do their job. What you are saing is basicly that there's no place for 2h tank outside of SCs. But that wasn't the aim of the Devs. The changes to Guard were done to make SnB more viable in smallscale, not to kill 2h tanks in WB environment. Those two things are different.

P.S. my source about the avoidences cap was outdated, my bad

Never said that there's no place for 2h. They can still have good survivability they just need more defensive gear and better positioning. The changes was about guard damage, the normal damage you take from 2h hasn't changed, and not sure why you would want to buff survivability for 2h so they can face tank warbands. If you want to do that playing an SM is great for that.

I repeat myself: I never said that 2h tanks have to face-tank multiple wb.
What I'm saying from the first page is that you CAN spec for 2h and survivability (althought the game isn't really designed for it), but doing so you lose the very reason you specced for 2h: skill locked behinde 2h requirement.
I'll make you an example:
on BG you would have used this build (RoR.builders - Black Guard) for city or wb. But with this build, now you would just melt. Even speccing all you gear and RP defensivelly. So now, for 2h build you will use this build here (RoR.builders - Black Guard). In the second build you don't take neither the wounds debuff or Crimson Death, which are the reasons to take a 2h BG in wb. So, what's the point of playing bg in wb? There's none! And this is exactly why even in organized wb you will not see more than 1 BG.
Also, I really don't get why you support this change. This change is one of the very reasons why Order is deeply lacking in melee characters AND roaming party. IMO reverting part of this change (put guard damage only on parry, but leave stats contri and striketrought in the formula) would help Order get back some of his melees

So since the changes there has been no reason to have a 2h BG in city? Then you say one is okay in a wb? Well if you didn't know, depending on the comp, one 2h of each tank class is needed in a web anyways for both order and Destro, so having only 1 2h BG doesn't necessarily mean something needs fixing. Knights have the worst survivability out of all the tanks with a 2h, and yet I don't have any major issue with staying alive, it's not just about spec, it's gear. If you keep dying on your BG to guard damage then something with the gear/group is wrong.

If you are not in a ST party and/or you don't have warlord for the detaunt, just wear armour with defensive set bonus and the bb/be/epic quest weapon for the extra 10% on-top. Throw your renown points into parry dodge and disrupt, rest into fs and if your positioning isn't the best, use toughness tallies. No need to sacrifice group utility for survivability.

Nothing needed to be reverted, you want to go 2h you pay a price for it. Again... 2h offensive tank should not be avoiding all the guard damage better or equal to that of a snb tank.

Order lacking on melee? I don't understand.

Akilinus wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:28 am

abezverkhiy wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:56 am Agreed. But don't really care as I am fine being SnB. It is fair to cull 2h and make them think harder.

Its hard to take your opinion serious when you state that you dont care. Ofc if it wont effect you its a huge nerf to everyone else.
Im not sure what you mean with think harder?

Don't look at it as it's the end of the world as you know it. It is not so huge, it maybe the end of easy life but tanks will remain tanks.

Think harder - play smarter in changed conditions. Stop feeling genius simply because you rolled for instance a Chosen and get healed on every parry, wear thick plate noone can pierce, swing twohander real hard and produce a decent amount of damage reduction for your mates. You can't expect this to last indefinitely in a game that tries to seek for a balance. So think harder, look for new options, decide what you need as a tank and what can be forfeited. I as IB forfeited damage part and feel alright about it. Tanks are for tanking.

Come on be real - tanks had amount of perks others could only dream of - look at sorcs or whs and talk to them about your hardship. Bet they will piss their own pants laughing while listening to your story.

abezverkhiy wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:22 am

Akilinus wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:28 am

abezverkhiy wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:56 am Agreed. But don't really care as I am fine being SnB. It is fair to cull 2h and make them think harder.

Its hard to take your opinion serious when you state that you dont care. Ofc if it wont effect you its a huge nerf to everyone else.
Im not sure what you mean with think harder?

Don't look at it as it's the end of the world as you know it. It is not so huge, it maybe the end of easy life but tanks will remain tanks.

Think harder - play smarter in changed conditions. Stop feeling genius simply because you rolled for instance a Chosen and get healed on every parry, wear thick plate noone can pierce, swing twohander real hard and produce a decent amount of damage reduction for your mates. You can't expect this to last indefinitely in a game that tries to seek for a balance. So think harder, look for new options, decide what you need as a tank and what can be forfeited. I as IB forfeited damage part and feel alright about it. Tanks are for tanking.

Come on be real - tanks had amount of perks others could only dream of - look at sorcs or whs and talk to them about your hardship. Bet they will piss their own pants laughing while listening to your story.

I think you and I are playing 2 different games. So the think smarter part is to remove the guard to avoid the damage for yourself?
The problem I have with this server is that it does not seek balance. If that was the case you would see them create new specs so give players as many options as possible but this is not the case here.

No, I think they are doing a terrific job. As for the think smarter part it is up to you to think smart.

Anyway, the environment has changed. Deal with it

Never played a tank under the old system. So I can't compare. But all these (not only by you) posts about 2h tanks usefull cc/utility made me curious. I can see it for KotBS. I can't really see it for IB at the moment. But I'm only looking at the probably a bit outdated career builder. So I might be missing something.
But what does a 2h SM bring to the table regarding cc/utility, that a snb SM doesn't? And what comp would need a 2h SM?

detrap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:47 am

nocturnalguest wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:02 am @detrap
Look man, bad bait, but im taking.
2h tank can reach a point that it dont need to care much about guard dmg. HP bar barely moves in small scale encounters. True.
Does it mean that you can "walk in" and say that - ow boiz, look (citing you btw):
"It's not fair that 2h tanks are just as hard to kill as snb tanks"
"If you also want more survivability as a 2h have more snb tanks in the warband using htl?"
"It was a great change and better for the game overall!"
All your 3 initial points have been debunked.
No need to overwrite your claims.

Debunked how?

Yes...it's not fair 2h tanks could survive the guard damage as well as snb tanks.
Yes...since tanks have trouble stacking dodge and disrupt with 2h builds, relying on the 45% buff from shield tanks is useful.
Yes...the game is better now that there is more of an emphasis on snb tanks in wb play.

Please list why those comments are incorrect.

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? I'd like you to answer this specific question singly.
I dont understand what exactly are you trying to achieve in this discussion.
Strenght comes with admitting if you were wrong, learn from mistakes and move on being much more knowledgeable person than before.

Altho i will do as you say and list why even your overwritten claims are incorrect but as i feel you are confusing past and present i will try to do so in context of before the change of guard we discuss and after.

Initial claim #1. 2h tanks are just as hard to kill as snb tanks.
Before the changes you didnt need dodge/disrupt to deal with guard dmg, so 2h tanks were in better place then now but by no means harder to kill then snb tanks. At the moment problem is that 2h tanks are too squishy in large scale. Reasoning why it is not true does not depend on past and present much, so i will sum it up.
In discussion with Ysaran you changed your mind, but i will be still listing, 2h tanks are not just as hard to kill as snb tanks because:
- block works against all attacks and overall best avoidance stat
- most of powerful defensive tactics&abilities gated to shield only or allocated in respective mastery trees so 2h cant reliable benefit from them
Overwritten claim #1. it's not fair 2h tanks could survive the guard damage as well as snb tanks.
2h tanks could not survive the guard damage better then snb tanks because:
- there was parry/block hardcap of 75% for guard, also there was block rating hardcrap of 50% and WS hard cap of 25% (that would be almost never reached as e.g. 1050 str vs 1050 ws would result in only 7,5% parry from WS accounted to handle guard dmg), thus tanks still could receive GUARD DMG even thru overstacked avoidance and morales.
- snb tanks could stack both block and parry and there are separate rolls for that in case of guard calculation, so probability to avoid guard dmg was higher with block+parry than just with parry.
So...
Before the Change:
It was perfectly balanced with block/parry avoidance hard cap for guard handling making tanks still suffer from guard dmg.
Your arguments before the change are simply day dreaming. Such things never happened nor they were basically possible, like this one, in particular:

2h SM's did a better job guarding champs as a non champ, better than any snb tank could on order. Because 90%-100% parry (over 200% every few seconds) > than a tank with around 35% block and parry
For guard damage, parry % similar to this is better than most snb tanks.

The quote above is just your wrong theoretical assumption and not what actually was happening.
After the Change:
It is now making 2h excessively suffer for no apparent balance reason. Removal of hard caps on avoidance (i suppose it was simple cause of copy-paste avoidance part of code where there were no hardcaps at least from what is published) for guard kinda compensates but you now have to face 2 aditional damage types without reliable possibility to stack dodge/disrupt to the same level.
Reason for the change is that for Yali it seems "unlogical" that you can parry fireball. As simple as that. So what you made up as reasoning for that change is not actually exists at all.

Other two claims i will combine as they are actually much similiar to each other.
Initial claim #2. If you also want more survivability as a 2h have more snb tanks in the warband using htl?
Overwritten claim #2. since tanks have trouble stacking dodge and disrupt with 2h builds, relying on the 45% buff from shield tanks is useful
Your survivability greatly depends on your group as a whole and each does its part. Before the change 2h could handle guard dmg much better and it lead to healers having lesser pressure on them and DPS were free to DPS instead of mixing in defensive cooldowns. After the change 2h tank creates a pressure on his own group because it struggles to handle guard dmg. Its not even about htl or warbands or snb tanks.
Also its very crucial to notice that detaunt comes first, so if DPS is actively detaunting it will lessen the pressure on tank (guard+detaunt dont stack, detaunt goes first, guard second).
And this is what distinguish good groups of players then each does his job properly and situations which people call "2h not viable" because detaunt from dps was not on time, healer messing up rotation.
Before the change, good group of players could actually do just fine by themselves.
After the change, 2h tanks in large environment become a burden for their group/warband and require more efforts from other people because they are not able to overcome the issue reliatevily putting efforts themselves. It's bad design, surviveability should depend on efforts put by a person playing the class, in this case a tank.

Initial claim #3. It was a great change and better for the game overall!
Overwritten claim #3. The game is better now that there is more of an emphasis on snb tanks in wb play.
It was not a great change at all and not by any means better for the game overall, because:
- it just wrecked chaos with no reason for a somewhat balanced system, not providing any oportunities to overcome (gear was not changed, some class may stack dodge/disrupt, some not etc)
- gutting off entire builds from the orvr game, making them obsolete and unviable and thus killing overall diversity for large scale on ENTIRE ARCHETYPE (still some classes are able to run 2h in so called random 4 am "end game" where not a single guild able to do a full 24 with proper composition, but larger than 24v24 on a maps like city specificaly there are no space 2h bg, kotbs, chosen, sm or whatever)

And look, its not just me, most basically told more or less same things (kinda surprisingly for RoR forums).

If you disagree with something im all in to further discuss my claims but I strongly advice you to stop cherrypicking and pulling things out of context like you do here for past few pages tho.

Could anything be done to fix it?
Yeah, sure:
1. Revert guard change, bring back old formula
2. Revert nerfs for AoE healdebuffs
3. Observe and if needed revert morale diminishing return

Akilinus wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:21 am The problem I have with this server is that it does not seek balance.

You are (not) alone

edit: spelling

Brickson wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:13 pm Never played a tank under the old system. So I can't compare. But all these (not only by you) posts about 2h tanks usefull cc/utility made me curious. I can see it for KotBS. I can't really see it for IB at the moment. But I'm only looking at the probably a bit outdated career builder. So I might be missing something.
But what does a 2h SM bring to the table regarding cc/utility, that a snb SM doesn't? And what comp would need a 2h SM?

2h SM in comparsion with SnB SM brings nothing but assist dmg sacrificing alot of survivability. Actually it is gated for SnB and WW if we talk about city. For anything larger than 24 no amount of darting steel gonna save your pointy ear arse.
Same goes for IB.

Brickson wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:13 pm

Spoiler:

detrap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:05 am

Ysaran wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:36 am

I repeat myself: I never said that 2h tanks have to face-tank multiple wb.
What I'm saying from the first page is that you CAN spec for 2h and survivability (althought the game isn't really designed for it), but doing so you lose the very reason you specced for 2h: skill locked behinde 2h requirement.
I'll make you an example:
on BG you would have used this build (RoR.builders - Black Guard) for city or wb. But with this build, now you would just melt. Even speccing all you gear and RP defensivelly. So now, for 2h build you will use this build here (RoR.builders - Black Guard). In the second build you don't take neither the wounds debuff or Crimson Death, which are the reasons to take a 2h BG in wb. So, what's the point of playing bg in wb? There's none! And this is exactly why even in organized wb you will not see more than 1 BG.
Also, I really don't get why you support this change. This change is one of the very reasons why Order is deeply lacking in melee characters AND roaming party. IMO reverting part of this change (put guard damage only on parry, but leave stats contri and striketrought in the formula) would help Order get back some of his melees

So since the changes there has been no reason to have a 2h BG in city? Then you say one is okay in a wb? Well if you didn't know, depending on the comp, one 2h of each tank class is needed in a web anyways for both order and Destro, so having only 1 2h BG doesn't necessarily mean something needs fixing. Knights have the worst survivability out of all the tanks with a 2h, and yet I don't have any major issue with staying alive, it's not just about spec, it's gear. If you keep dying on your BG to guard damage then something with the gear/group is wrong.

If you are not in a ST party and/or you don't have warlord for the detaunt, just wear armour with defensive set bonus and the bb/be/epic quest weapon for the extra 10% on-top. Throw your renown points into parry dodge and disrupt, rest into fs and if your positioning isn't the best, use toughness tallies. No need to sacrifice group utility for survivability.

Nothing needed to be reverted, you want to go 2h you pay a price for it. Again... 2h offensive tank should not be avoiding all the guard damage better or equal to that of a snb tank.

Order lacking on melee? I don't understand.

Never played a tank under the old system. So I can't compare. But all these (not only by you) posts about 2h tanks usefull cc/utility made me curious. I can see it for KotBS. I can't really see it for IB at the moment. But I'm only looking at the probably a bit outdated career builder. So I might be missing something.
But what does a 2h SM bring to the table regarding cc/utility, that a snb SM doesn't? And what comp would need a 2h SM?

2H IB's can do the best burst damage out of all the order tanks. They have access to all the useful utility, except for the cooldown increaser which requires a shield.

SM's blob control utility is locked behind having a shield (AoE interrupt/ST punt). In cities, 2H SM's are usually put in ST groups. They still have access to the very important cooldown decreaser for the group and a knockdown. You could also use them to AoE spam the blob to help with DoT pressure and stat stealing. In ORvR, 2H SM's can be the best tank on order for face tanking warbands, funnels, eating guard damage and can spec for an extra AoE punt as an M4. However I don't see many, if any, spec defensively with a 2H. It's Order's equivalent of the SnB Black Orc.

nocturnalguest wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:57 pm

Spoiler:

detrap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:47 am

nocturnalguest wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:02 am @detrap
Look man, bad bait, but im taking.
2h tank can reach a point that it dont need to care much about guard dmg. HP bar barely moves in small scale encounters. True.
Does it mean that you can "walk in" and say that - ow boiz, look (citing you btw):
"It's not fair that 2h tanks are just as hard to kill as snb tanks"
"If you also want more survivability as a 2h have more snb tanks in the warband using htl?"
"It was a great change and better for the game overall!"
All your 3 initial points have been debunked.
No need to overwrite your claims.

Debunked how?

Yes...it's not fair 2h tanks could survive the guard damage as well as snb tanks.
Yes...since tanks have trouble stacking dodge and disrupt with 2h builds, relying on the 45% buff from shield tanks is useful.
Yes...the game is better now that there is more of an emphasis on snb tanks in wb play.

Please list why those comments are incorrect.

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? I'd like you to answer this specific question singly.
I dont understand what exactly are you trying to achieve in this discussion.
Strenght comes with admitting if you were wrong, learn from mistakes and move one being much more knowledgeable person than before.

Altho i will do as you say and list why even your overwritten claims are incorrect but as i feel you are confusing past and present i will try to do so in context of before the change of guard we discuss and after.

Initial claim #1. 2h tanks are just as hard to kill as snb tanks.
Before the changes you didnt need dodge/disrupt to deal with guard dmg, so 2h tanks were in better place then now but by no means harder to kill then snb tanks. At the moment problem is that 2h tanks are too squishy in large scale. Reasoning why it is not true does not depend on past and present much, so i will sum it up.
In discussion with Ysaran you changed your mind, but i will be still listing, 2h tanks are not just as hard to kill as snb tanks because:
- block works against all attacks and overall best avoidance stat
- most of powerful defensive tactics&abilities gated to shield only or allocated in respective mastery trees so 2h cant reliable benefit from them
Overwritten claim #1. it's not fair 2h tanks could survive the guard damage as well as snb tanks.
2h tanks could not survive the guard damage better then snb tanks because:
- there was parry/block hardcap of 75% for guard, also there was block rating hardcrap of 50% and WS hard cap of 25% (that would be almost never reached as e.g. 1050 str vs 1050 ws would result in only 7,5% parry from WS accounted to handle guard dmg), thus tanks still could receive GUARD DMG even thru overstacked avoidance and morales.
- snb tanks could stack both block and parry and there are separate rolls for that in case of guard calculation, so probability to avoid guard dmg was higher with block+parry than just with parry.
So...
Before the Change:
It was perfectly balanced with block/parry avoidance hard cap for guard handling making tanks still suffer from guard dmg.
Your arguments before the change are simply day dreaming. Such things never happened nor they were basically possible, like this one, in particular:

2h SM's did a better job guarding champs as a non champ, better than any snb tank could on order. Because 90%-100% parry (over 200% every few seconds) > than a tank with around 35% block and parry
For guard damage, parry % similar to this is better than most snb tanks.

The quote above is just your wrong theoretical assumption and not what actually was happening.
After the Change:
It is now making 2h excessively suffer for no apparent balance reason. Removal of hard caps on avoidance (i suppose it was simple cause of copy-paste avoidance part of code where there were no hardcaps at least from what is published) for guard kinda compensates but you know have to face 2 aditional damage types without reliable possibility to stack dodge/disrupt to the same level.
Reason for the change is that for Yali it seems "unlogical" that you can parry fireball. As simple as that. So what you made up as reasoning for that change is not actually exists at all.

Other two claims i will combine as they are actually much similiar to each other.
Initial claim #2. If you also want more survivability as a 2h have more snb tanks in the warband using htl?
Overwritten claim #2. since tanks have trouble stacking dodge and disrupt with 2h builds, relying on the 45% buff from shield tanks is useful
Your survivability greatly depends on your group as a whole and each does its part. Before the change 2h could handle guard dmg much better and it lead to healers having lesser pressure on them and DPS were free to DPS instead of mixing in defensive cooldowns. After the change 2h tank creates a pressure on his own group because it struggles to handle guard dmg. Its not even about htl or warbands or snb tanks.
Also its very crucial to notice that detaunt comes first, so if DPS is actively detaunting it will lessen the pressure on tank (guard+detaunt dont stack, detaunt goes first, guard second).
And this is what distinguish good groups of players then each does his job properly and situations which people call "2h not viable" because detaunt from dps was not on time, healer messing up rotation.
Before the change, good group of players could actually do just fine by themselves.
After the change, 2h tanks in large environment become a burden in large scale for their group/warband and require more efforts from other people because they are not able to overcome the issue reliatevily putting efforts themselves. It's bad design, surviveability should depend on efforts put by a person playing the class, in this case a tank.

Initial claim #3. It was a great change and better for the game overall!
Overwritten claim #3. The game is better now that there is more of an emphasis on snb tanks in wb play.
It was not a great change at all and not by any means better for the game overall, because:
- it just wrecked chaos with no reason for a somewhat balanced system, not providing any oportunities to overcome (gear was not changed, some class may stack dodge/disrupt, some not etc)
- gutting off entire builds from the orvr game, making them obsolete and unviable and thus killing overall diversity for large scale on ENTIRE ARCHETYPE (still some classes are able to run 2h in so called random 4 am "end game" where not a single guild able to do a full 24 with proper composition, but larger than 24v24 on a maps like city specificaly there are no space 2h bg, kotbs, chosen, sm or whatever)

And look, its not just me, most basically told more or less same things (kinda surprisingly for RoR forums).

If you disagree with something im all in to further discuss my claims but I strongly advice you to stop cherrypicking and pulling things out of context like you do here for past few pages tho.

Could anything be done to fix it?
Yeah, sure:
1. Revert guard change, bring back old formula
2. Revert nerfs for AoE healdebuffs
3. Observe and if needed revert morale diminishing return

Akilinus wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:21 am The problem I have with this server is that it does not seek balance.

You are (not) alone

Need to ask you...pre-patch, have you every played a tank that can upwards of 70% parry? Guarding a champ as a non tank champ on order, nothing came close to surviving as well as a 2H SM.

Initial claim #1. 2h tanks are just as hard to kill as snb tanks.
Before the changes you didnt need dodge/disrupt to deal with guard dmg, so 2h tanks were in better place then now but by no means harder to kill then snb tanks. At the moment problem is that 2h tanks are too squishy in large scale. Reasoning why it is not true does not depend on past and present much, so i will sum it up.
In discussion with Ysaran you changed your mind, but i will be still listing, 2h tanks are not just as hard to kill as snb tanks because:
- block works against all attacks and overall best avoidance stat
- most of powerful defensive tactics&abilities gated to shield only or allocated in respective mastery trees so 2h cant reliable benefit from them
Overwritten claim #1. it's not fair 2h tanks could survive the guard damage as well as snb tanks.
2h tanks could not survive the guard damage better then snb tanks because:
- there was parry/block hardcap of 75% for guard, also there was block rating hardcrap of 50% and WS hard cap of 25% (that would be almost never reached as e.g. 1050 str vs 1050 ws would result in only 7,5% parry from WS accounted to handle guard dmg), thus tanks still could receive GUARD DMG even thru overstacked avoidance and morales.
- snb tanks could stack both block and parry and there are separate rolls for that in case of guard calculation, so probability to avoid guard dmg was higher with block+parry than just with parry.
So...
Before the Change:
It was perfectly balanced with block/parry avoidance hard cap for guard handling making tanks still suffer from guard dmg.
Your arguments before the change are simply day dreaming. Such things never happened nor they were basically possible, like this one, in particular:

2h SM's did a better job guarding champs as a non champ, better than any snb tank could on order. Because 90%-100% parry (over 200% every few seconds) > than a tank with around 35% block and parry
For guard damage, parry % similar to this is better than most snb tanks.

The quote above is just your wrong theoretical assumption and not what actually was happening.
After the Change:
It is now making 2h excessively suffer for no apparent balance reason. Removal of hard caps on avoidance (i suppose it was simple cause of copy-paste avoidance part of code where there were no hardcaps at least from what is published) for guard kinda compensates but you know have to face 2 aditional damage types without reliable possibility to stack dodge/disrupt to the same level.
Reason for the change is that for Yali it seems "unlogical" that you can parry fireball. As simple as that. So what you made up as reasoning for that change is not actually exists at all.

There is no hardcap for defenses. Pre-patch 2H tanks were staying alive just as well as SnB tanks in cities. This allowed for better assisted damage burst from more than just the dps in the group, which is what determines the outcome of fights. I've just explained that 2H tanks could survive equal to or better than snb tanks in city fights. Never stacked weapon skill on my SM. Of course you receive guard damage no matter SnB or 2H, but it was easily manageable for the healers.

I am well aware of block and parry being on two separate defensive checks, but having upwards of 70% parry was enough to warrant not using a shield in warband vs warband fights. Again I've tested this with my SM and I know that BG's, Chosens and IB's could also stack high amounts and be the last one standing alongside SnB tanks in cities. 2H tanks should not be able to sit around the blob and dish out considerable amounts of dps (for a tank) without having to worry about putting points in defenses other than just parry and futile strikes.

Initial claim #2. If you also want more survivability as a 2h have more snb tanks in the warband using htl?
Overwritten claim #2. since tanks have trouble stacking dodge and disrupt with 2h builds, relying on the 45% buff from shield tanks is useful
Your survivability greatly depends on your group as a whole and each does its part. Before the change 2h could handle guard dmg much better and it lead to healers having lesser pressure on them and DPS were free to DPS instead of mixing in defensive cooldowns. After the change 2h tank creates a pressure on his own group because it struggles to handle guard dmg. Its not even about htl or warbands or snb tanks.
Also its very crucial to notice that detaunt comes first, so if DPS is actively detaunting it will lessen the pressure on tank (guard+detaunt dont stack, detaunt goes first, guard second).
And this is what distinguish good groups of players then each does his job properly and situations which people call "2h not viable" because detaunt from dps was not on time, healer messing up rotation.
Before the change, good group of players could actually do just fine by themselves.
After the change, 2h tanks in large environment become a burden in large scale for their group/warband and require more efforts from other people because they are not able to overcome the issue reliatevily putting efforts themselves. It's bad design, surviveability should depend on efforts put by a person playing the class, in this case a tank.

That's how it should be It was one of the points of the changes. Being an aggressively spec'd 2H means you will also put more pressure on your healers. Tanks should be more about group support rather than pushing the boundaries of trying to be a mdps without consequence. It's easy to survive in 2H spec, just gear defensively, sit behind tanks using HTL and position yourself better.

Initial claim #3. It was a great change and better for the game overall!
Overwritten claim #3. The game is better now that there is more of an emphasis on snb tanks in wb play.
It was not a great change at all and not by any means better for the game overall, because:
- it just wrecked chaos with no reason for a somewhat balanced system, not providing any oportunities to overcome (gear was not changed, some class may stack dodge/disrupt, some not etc)
- gutting off entire builds from the orvr game, making them obsolete and unviable and thus killing overall diversity for large scale on ENTIRE ARCHETYPE (still some classes are able to run 2h in so called random 4 am "end game" where not a single guild able to do a full 24 with proper composition, but larger than 24v24 on a maps like city specificaly there are no space 2h bg, kotbs, chosen, sm or whatever)

And look, its not just me, most basically told more or less same things (kinda surprisingly for RoR forums).

If you disagree with something im all in to further discuss my claims but I strongly advice you to stop cherrypicking and pulling things out of context like you do here for past few pages tho.

Could anything be done to fix it?
Yeah, sure:
1. Revert guard change, bring back old formula
2. Revert nerfs for AoE healdebuffs
3. Observe and if needed revert morale diminishing return

All tank classes can stack dodge/disrupt with gear and renown. You can get up to 20% extra defensive procs from gear alone. Add 15%-45% from SnB tanks using HTL, then what's the issue? Just don't be the first one leading the charge lol. Every warband needs a good 2H tank from each race for various reasons, if you are not sure on that you can easily look up the skill trees on career builder. You are gimping the warbands damage if there is no 2h Knight as an example.

These changes have been great. It's given a lot of respect back to SnB tanks, premade warbands are more accepting of lesser geared tanks and HTL is being used more than ever.