Debate about why Order is how it is.

[Foverskov]

As this now has turned about city. Do typically most get into city at order side? On destro side it seems that you need 12 or 24 to be fairly sure to get in. Soloing does not seem to work anymore (yesterday we had a crash before stage 1 started which did not get backfilled all city). This leads to all cities I have been in have a 2/2/2 setup (even the pug wbs).

On the other side you still run into complete bonkers order setups with 2-3 healers or tanks. Is that because of less pop that you are guaranteed to get in or that it is impossible to get tanks and heals for all wbs?

If you solo que on Order, you get a city pop after a few seconds, atleast within the first 10 minutes, haven't really tried afterward.

In general, there is a lack of WB leaders on Order, the LFG is filled with people looking for city wb's but there just ain't that many Warbands around and alot of people are having there first time in cities, especially on Order, dunno how it is on Destro, with all the pugs i've been with which is usually 24 solo que's thrown together, which is why you see these unbalanced warbands, you sometimes get the lucky 2/2/2 fill, but the players are new and undergeared compared to the opponent.

There is the odd 12 man or 6 man, but most of the time they are backfilled with solo que aswell, atleast the few I've tried.

[Vayra]

As this now has turned about city. Do typically most get into city at order side? On destro side it seems that you need 12 or 24 to be fairly sure to get in. Soloing does not seem to work anymore (yesterday we had a crash before stage 1 started which did not get backfilled all city). This leads to all cities I have been in have a 2/2/2 setup (even the pug wbs).

On the other side you still run into complete bonkers order setups with 2-3 healers or tanks. Is that because of less pop that you are guaranteed to get in or that it is impossible to get tanks and heals for all wbs?

If you solo que on Order, you get a city pop after a few seconds, atleast within the first 10 minutes, haven't really tried afterward.

In general, there is a lack of WB leaders on Order, the LFG is filled with people looking for city wb's but there just ain't that many Warbands around and alot of people are having there first time in cities, especially on Order, dunno how it is on Destro, with all the pugs i've been with which is usually 24 solo que's thrown together, which is why you see these unbalanced warbands, you sometimes get the lucky 2/2/2 fill, but the players are new and undergeared compared to the opponent.

There is the odd 12 man or 6 man, but most of the time they are backfilled with solo que aswell, atleast the few I've tried.

There you have it. The reason order loses more cities than destro. Destro builds almost entirely 12, 18, or 24 man warbands for city. Not all will be well led, but they will almost all have 2/2/2 and be at least somewhat coordinated. If order doesn't match that, they're gonna lose, regardless of any imbalances between order and destro classes.

[Sustains]

I'd like to contribute my input as someone who with the influx of newbies couple months ago, joining Destro and recently hitting 80rr. I've done at least 20+ cities and in my experience, most of the time Order groups/pugs just aren't bringing the 2-2-2 setup which just almost always screams free win for us. Whether it is classes lacking not bringing enough to the table or the lack of appeal to players, I do not know the answer.
I don't think it's a matter of skill level differential on both sides, but I do think that attitude is a big part of it and individuals with competitive tryhard 'wanting to do better' mentalities come to this faction has something to do with it. I feel like we have more leaders more willing to step up and take charge and people who will play classes to fill out what is needed. This also means that more are willing to change builds/get on comms and make sure 2-2-2 is met to ensure best chances at victory. If you don't play/bring meta, it's less likely you'll be invited and in a faction where being unable to get in a city because of City Loggers is a reality and not enough Order qing, you sort of need to roll these classes to not be excluded. Sure there is "play what you like", but the reality is at it stands is not all classes are built for city play or groups haven't found a way to utilise their strengths together. The 6 man i usually city with have found a way to incorporate a WE into our group play and find success which I don't see many of. So why can't Order do the same? Are the synergies really that lacking or is it just excuses and a refusal to default to "Our classes are worse off" instead of finding other alternatives. How many people really theorycraft about their own class and specs of others. I'm curious. But you guys are the experts, I'm just a rookie.

[nat3s]

Order lacks tanks because they look like **** + there are so many better classes to play on Order:

DPS AM, the single best 1v1 class in the game
WL a very capable solo roamer and pug stomper in SC with crazy burst + pounce
BW the best bomber in the game, bombs twice as hard as Sorcs
Engi with its crazy burst

Destro gets sexy looking tanks and classes + less obviously OP classes, for instance:

Mara is clearly no WL, it has no pounce and does **** dmg even post buff. So people dont flock to them like people flock to WLs.
DPS Shaman has 1 less DoT than DPS AM and DPS AM can cleanse shaman DoTs where shama cannot cleanse AM DoTs. If I was a new player I know which one I would pick!
mSH is good, but again it's no WL, it is popular, but not as popular as WL/dps AM on Order

While Order continues to have some sick OP classes, of course players will flock to them over playing tanks/healers.... Bombling believe me for the sake of your BW, you don't want to know what the real solution is to stop everyone flocking to the OP classes

[Vayra]

This type of thinking is just hilarious to me. There aren't "better" destro guilds. There are "overtuned" destro classes as a whole. FMJ mainly run sorc bomb builds, and while they are very coordinated and effective, are no better players than what people would consider the "good" order players. It's simply that destro's floor is *much* higher than order's, due to a lot of factors: versatility, overtuning of classes, and absence of counters. It's been this way for a while but it hasn't been as apparent since cities were dropped. Plus, guess where most of the "good" guilds would be playing if order had the edge in cities?

You're right, it's not that destro players are better players than order players. It's that we're more organized. That organization of bringing a proper setup into cities and being willing to work together is what makes the difference. Not higher skill, not any class imbalances (LOL at the people claiming destro has better overall healing output), organization. Ironically this is what typically sets good apart from evil in fiction. Good overcomes evil not through individual skill or power, but through teamwork.

How to fix this for order is a different matter. But it's not something the devs can fix, it's something you have to figure out for yourselves.

[Alterkraft]

There is an imbalance on tanks wb play though. The selfpumps on both BO and chosen doesn't make them relying on an AM to do the pumping for them. And anyone who played in an organized wb ever knows these 4 extra potential 'deafening bellows' make a lot up in free killing potential. On the flip side if you'd actually use the AM properly you can completely deny destro all these morals. But that requires a bit more effort I guess.

[jvlosky]

whoops dunno how to delete posts

[jvlosky]

This type of thinking is just hilarious to me. There aren't "better" destro guilds. There are "overtuned" destro classes as a whole. FMJ mainly run sorc bomb builds, and while they are very coordinated and effective, are no better players than what people would consider the "good" order players. It's simply that destro's floor is *much* higher than order's, due to a lot of factors: versatility, overtuning of classes, and absence of counters. It's been this way for a while but it hasn't been as apparent since cities were dropped. Plus, guess where most of the "good" guilds would be playing if order had the edge in cities?

You're right, it's not that destro players are better players than order players. It's that we're more organized. That organization of bringing a proper setup into cities and being willing to work together is what makes the difference. Not higher skill, not any class imbalances (LOL at the people claiming destro has better overall healing output), organization. Ironically this is what typically sets good apart from evil in fiction. Good overcomes evil not through individual skill or power, but through teamwork.

How to fix this for order is a different matter. But it's not something the devs can fix, it's something you have to figure out for yourselves.

The main issue is that Destro has more viable classes for group content than Order.

AM and SW are severely lacking to their Destro counterparts in terms of class performance and player representation (which ties into class performance).

So you have 2 classes that are borked for group content right off the bat for Order and if you were to roll the dice and grab a random set of classes from a bag for both sides chances are the Destro team would be better balanced towards a win because they don't have SW or AM lol.

The meta is to apply pressure and aoe damage which is beneficial to destro class compostion. They have one extra viable melee class in Mara > SW (or whatever you want the mirror to be) that brings Morale drains, AP pumps and is super tanky with monstro form. SW has horrible AOE spec, a heal cut, and decent single target damage.

Same thing goes for Shaman vs AM. AM may have a one extra tool in their kit but Shamans and all gobbos have near infinite speed increase due to tactics and can be immune to knockdowns.


Overall Destro has more viable classes. mSH is much stronger than Destro cares to admit and honestly if WL wasn't in the current state it is in Destro wouldnt have ANYTHING to complain about.

I mean you can compare Knight and Chosen 1 by 1 and Chosen has better damage pressure and Auras that pressure. 25% healing reduced aura is a thousand times better than Knight's 75% reduced healing output aura. Chosen's Daemon Claw is thousands of times better than Runefang. Chosen's Oppressing Blows is INSANE and Knight has nothing like it.

Destro classes are just better overall, especially with how they are supposed to be 'selfish' but that 'seflishness' in buffing themselves still attributes to being wayy stronger than the sum of its parts when grouped together.

Destro has better tuned classes overall. WL is the exception that proves the rule.

[blondgelockt]

tl;dr: All these small nerfs and buffs over the years combined in the end to make Destro simply better in almost every way. Easier to play, easier to pug, generally more powerful classes, more options, more CC, more players, and so on, and so on.

All the other stuff about organizing etc. is really just a big, fat cope. Of course Order has problems organizing, what do you expect from the faction with less players, less options and weaker classes? It's not that easy when you got nothing to work with.

But let's also be honest - the problem isn't new and it was already predictable a long time ago.
Just as an easy example: It's funny that WP, the so-called iconic 2h melee healer after whose weapon the whole game is named, is still the only healer who never had a working dps spec.

But in the end, since nothing got changed for how many years now?, I wouldn't hold my breath. And this is also why I maintain the opinion that balance is worse here than on live and will not change greatly.

[Nekkma]

All the other stuff about organizing etc. is really just a big, fat cope. Of course Order has problems organizing, what do you expect from the faction with less players, less options and weaker classes? It's not that easy when you got nothing to work with.

We will never have perfect balance. Players need to solve some of the balance issues themselves. Order is for example littered with engies (from my perspective it seems to be on of the most popular classes orderside), a class that is a good solo sniper in keeps/forts and orvr but complete trash in scenarios against semi-organized oponents. It is fine to play an engie but you cannot stack them and expect any succes (which is the case for many classes on both sides btw). As such, there is plenty to work with.

On live, order had plenty of useless classes but order wbs did just fine in general because they stacked the good ones (empire wbs with token slayer).