Return of Reckoning

wargrimnir wrote:

fourhundred wrote:

Toldavf wrote:It's not about buff or nerf. Its about a mechanic that provides a ton of free stats and is as easy to maintain as keep using almost any offensive ability. and it is the overly simple nature of the mechanic that is under scrutiny here.

But it is interrelated, especially with something which has significant implications like changing a core mechanic. It's difficult to develop any good ideas without at least a broad understanding of what the end state should look like. What is the root cause of the problem and the intent? Is it to just to make the class more difficult to play, or make it stronger, or weaker?

Change just for the sake of change doesn't really make sense, so I'm sure there is another reason for the discussion. I'm just trying to find out what that reason is, so I, and everyone else, can more effectively contribute to the discussion.

Consider the core mechanics of other classes. They each have several factors that the mechanic introduces meaningful choices, drawbacks, and benefits (aside from Kobs/CC of course which is also on the list). The BW/Sorc mechanic contains a whole lot of buff with little other interactions aside from a random tick of damage that has already been discussed. Suggestions here should be changing how that mechanic works with the class, very likely adding a drawback of some sort proportional to the benefit, and creating choices in how to manage the mechanic.

BW/Sorc is one of the few classes remaining that has a very flat mechanic. It goes up, you get tons of extra damage, and you get hit occasionally. We intend to expand on this somehow, and suggestions from players familiar with the class will help us find a path to do so without crippling it outright. We're not looking for a flat nerf, but different options that are more engaging than the current one.

Thanks for the explanation, Wargrimnir. So to clarify, the overall intent is provide a net nerf to the bw/sorc and make the class more difficult to play through management of the mechanic. Does that sound about right? If I am misinterpreting something, let me know.

we're not looking for a flat nerf

You may be misinterpreting them, yes. The goal is to give them a more interactive and interesting mechanic, not necessarily to make the class itself weaker.

fourhundred wrote:

wargrimnir wrote: Consider the core mechanics of other classes. They each have several factors that the mechanic introduces meaningful choices, drawbacks, and benefits (aside from Kobs/CC of course which is also on the list). The BW/Sorc mechanic contains a whole lot of buff with little other interactions aside from a random tick of damage that has already been discussed. Suggestions here should be changing how that mechanic works with the class, very likely adding a drawback of some sort proportional to the benefit, and creating choices in how to manage the mechanic.

BW/Sorc is one of the few classes remaining that has a very flat mechanic. It goes up, you get tons of extra damage, and you get hit occasionally. We intend to expand on this somehow, and suggestions from players familiar with the class will help us find a path to do so without crippling it outright. We're not looking for a flat nerf, but different options that are more engaging than the current one.

Thanks for the explanation, Wargrimnir. So to clarify, the overall intent is provide a net nerf to the bw/sorc and make the class more difficult to play through management of the mechanic. Does that sound about right? If I am misinterpreting something, let me know.

I think a fair goal would be maintaining the level of burst output for players that adapt to any mechanic changes. Any mechanic implemented should give reasons they're not sitting at max burst potential indefinitely. While this may impact excessive sustained damage (something crit/burst classes shouldn't really have as it overshadows classes that specialize in sustained damage), something that modifies their gameplay after that initial burst to allow them to recover from 0 would be useful.

Someone else mentioned granting reduced cast time after a Comb/DM reset, I could see that being useful as a benefit and might open up other methods of play. Instead of sitting at max Comb/DM, you could cycle through it quickly to keep your reduced cast time, but quickly cycling through wouldn't allow whatever debuff to fall off.

But again, the thread is for creating suggestions, not arguing them as bad and shouting them down. My suggestion for a WND debuff was to get things rolling, not a solid direction we're considering.

GodlessCrom wrote:

we're not looking for a flat nerf

You may be misinterpreting them, yes.

I specifically said "net nerf" for that reason. So potentially buffs in some areas and nerfs in others with an overall less powerful class.

I think I understand where you guys stand on this. Thanks again, Wargrimnir.

How about a skill altered to have an added functionality, where you consume all your accumulated Comb/Dark in exchange for a buff of some sort, but casting it also gives you a wound debuff, which stacks each cumulative time you do this?

This would mean that BW/Sorc players will WANT to drain their 100 to get the buff, because presumably it's awesome, willingly accepting the debuff rather than letting the debuff just... randomly happen for being at 100. It'd probably require some tweaking to base spell damage so that the damage with this new buff is roughly the same as it was before when just sitting on 100, but it would at least add a bit more thought and play to the skillset. In my mind this would be a critical damage/chance buff, or even an added damage proc, something of the sort, and it'd stack in intensity similar to the wounds debuff. So going to high stacks would mean you could probably nuke an entire country, but a fly landing on you could kill you, and the wounds debuff would make the backlash procs actually scary as well, even if you're covered in healers.

I was just thinking about Sienna in Vermintide and how being over the 'safe' cap of combustion doesn't actually damage her (until she hits 100 and explodes), it's the draining it off that damages her, but in exchange you get to start casting spells again.

Apologies if this has already been suggested, I haven't read through the entire thread as of posting.

edit: added some more thoughts into the suggestion. I'm no balance expert, I can't say "give them x stat in exchange for y wounds", so in terms of being a catch-all suggestion it might not carry weight, but I think the general concept of this yin-yang stacking of positives and negatives is a good one.

fourhundred wrote:

GodlessCrom wrote:

we're not looking for a flat nerf

You may be misinterpreting them, yes.

I specifically said "net nerf" for that reason. So potentially buffs in some areas and nerfs in others with an overall less powerful class.

No. We are not aiming to make it overall less powerful.

The idea is having a mechanic that you have to actually play, rewarding skilled players and punishing bad ones. So it is possible to gain some kind of buffs when dropping the mechanic, or maybe if staying in a certain range (similar to slayers), or something else.

Good players will play the mechanic and perform better than they currently do, making this seem like a buff to them. Regular/bad players will continue playing at 100 all the time, not using any of the new possible buffs (and suffering a real drawback; not "backlash") which will make them perform worse than they currently do, and consider this change a nerf.

Penril wrote:

fourhundred wrote:

GodlessCrom wrote:
You may be misinterpreting them, yes.

I specifically said "net nerf" for that reason. So potentially buffs in some areas and nerfs in others with an overall less powerful class.

No. We are not aiming to make it overall less powerful.

The idea is having a mechanic that you have to actually play, rewarding skilled players and punishing bad ones. So it is possible to gain some kind of buffs when dropping the mechanic, or maybe if staying in a certain range (similar to slayers), or something else.

Good players will play the mechanic and perform better than they currently do, making this seem like a buff to them. Regular/bad players will continue playing at 100 all the time, not using any of the new possible buffs (and suffering a real drawback; not "backlash") which will make them perform worse than they currently do, and consider this change a nerf.

If this is what you guys are looking for, then I wish more than ever that I wish I had more insight than just a "What If!" idea to lend to my earlier suggestion, because I think it'd fit the bill.

As for giving a real drawback outside of just backlash, I think the idea of backlash can still work it just needs some expansion. Something like... Every consequtive tick of backlash you receive will hit 50% harder than the previous one, stacking, until some careless moron oneshots himself. Make the debuff have such a timer on it that the player would be heavily encouraged to burn off some Comb/Dark rather than sit around waiting for it to drop off, such as 30s maybe?

Just more wall-throwing here.

freshour wrote:

lefze wrote:
Tuning the kit more around the mechanic should be the obvious approach.

Yeah my thoughts exactly. But again this is just for brainstorming. I do like this idea as it can increase the drawbacks of sitting at 100% for instance if there is a multiplier added to sitting at full combust, say x2 damage after 10 seconds, x3 at 20 and so on, that way you can still sit at 100 for a bit, but when the moment comes you can dump combustion (you lose bonus from mechanic) but get an equal bonus or slightly less - added so during your rotation in those 10 seconds you can build up raw mechanic and add the bonus to it.

It would make timing pretty big. The better sorcs/bw's could use it to their benefit, and it would also add a drawback to going full on 100 combust all the time while not making the class less fun to play, just more engaging. I'm more than interested if anyone has any ideas of suggestions on this idea? Or maybe even drawbacks? (Tesq, now is your time to shine )

This really seems like a good route to go... Just brainstorming here... but what if you didnt get any benefits of the mechanic, UNTIL you used Meltdown, which then gave you the benefits of Combustion, based on the level you used it.
So you would have:

Combustion/Dark Magic: You build combustion when you attack. there is no backlash. You get no benefits until you use Meltdown.

Meltdown/ Dar Wind: Provides a buff that duration scales on the amount of combustion you have.
1-10: +35% Crit Chance, +100% Crit Damage for 2 seconds.
11-30: +35% Crit Chance, +100% Crit Damage for 4 seconds.
31-70: +35% Crit Chance, +100% Crit Damage for 6 seconds.
71-90: +35% Crit Chance, +100% Crit Damage for 8 seconds.
91-100: +35% Crit Chance, +100% Crit Damage for 10 seconds.

Something like that... So this potentially solves all three problems:

Problem #1: Backlash makes BW un-fun to play in PUG warbands or basically without a competent healer.
Solution #1: No Backlash anymore.

Problem #2: Mechanic can be ignored when with a competent healer.
Solution #2: Mechanic now can never be ignored, you will constantly be straining to keep your benefits up 100% of the time.

Problem #3: Without mechanic your damage is poop.
Solution #3: Even with low mechanic, you can pop meltdown at say 15 Combustion, and atleast have 4 seconds of decent burst damage. So your damage isnt "POOP" without max combustion.

DISCLAIMER: I did NOT strive to "balance" these numbers. Its possible they need to be scaled better, but you get the idea. You could always scale the crit and damage as well, but frankly i would rather just have them toy with duration as the PRIMARY differentiation for the scaling of combustion.... To allow for low mechanic BW/Sorcs to still have AN AVENUE to deal some damage....

EDIT: Here would be a proposed "scaling" mechanic if you REALLY wanted to provide extra "benefit" for building it up: Do you "build it up" more to have a longer "window for higher damage" OR do you pop it at a lower amount, to give you the damage when you need it.

The only caveat you may need to address is putting a CD on two abilities: Ice Spikes and (I forget the BW equiv) that is used to build mechanic. Maybe a 5 sec CD or something? Just a thought.

But I think this would make the class more fun to play and more versatile with less than 100% "uptime" on the mechanic (I think).

I've got 2 similar proposals:

A) The mechanic stays exactly the same, but the backlash damage you take is for the same amount of damage you dealt on the ability which triggered the backlash. So if you crit someone for a 2.5k word of pain which triggers a backlash, you also take 2.5k damage.

B) Instead of full damage to both targets, the backlash causes half of the damage to be dealt to the original target and half to be dealt to you. So if you have a 2k damage crit without backlash, that same 2k damage crit on backlash would deal 1k to your target and 1k to you. Sort of like a gun blowing up in your face, it'll still hurt the other guy, but it's not as effective as it would be if it hadn't blown up, and you also are hurting from it.

Edit: Since the intent is to reward players for proper management rather than simply punish them for improper management, I might not recommend the second one. I like the idea of combustion causing an increase in AP costs and consuming combustion restoring AP, as a good player will know when to push for high combustion for a finishing combo and then be rewarded with an AP restoration by dumping combustion.