Return of Reckoning

roadkillrobin wrote:Armor mitigration and Toughness mitigratiion works completly different. Thoughness mitigration reduce dmg by a fixed amount up to a threshold of the attackers power. While armor/ressistance is a flat procentege reduction. The way you're comparing em doesn't really work. Also toughness can't reduce the base dmg of a spell. Meaning thoughness higher then attacker's power is wasted. While armor, wounds, crit reduction still works against it.

Before contradicting Annaise, it would be helpful for you to understand that he is one of the most knowledgeable people ever to play the game when it comes to the combat mechanics.

Well said

roadkillrobin wrote: Armor mitigration and Toughness mitigratiion works completly different. Thoughness mitigration reduce dmg by a fixed amount up to a threshold of the attackers power. While armor/ressistance is a flat procentege reduction. The way you're comparing em doesn't really work. Also toughness can't reduce the base dmg of a spell. Meaning thoughness higher then attacker's power is wasted. While armor, wounds, crit reduction still works against it.

I know how armor and toughness work. It is why I used the word approximately when referring to toughness. I am applying a rough average mitigation from toughness across a wide range of abilities from a wide range of classes. This is the only way that a comparison can be made unless you want to do a spreadsheet showing the mitigation provided by toughness against every ability using a wide range of damage bonuses and toughnesses for each ability.

By the way, Rugged should almost always be better than Flawless Armor as a tactic choice. Again, the mitigation provided by Rugged will be different for every ability and for different values of attacker's damage bonus versus defender's toughness, but Rugged should always be adding better than 7%-8% extra mitigation, while Flawless armor will only provide that amount against BWs operating at maximum mechanic.

Azarael wrote:

roadkillrobin wrote:Armor mitigration and Toughness mitigratiion works completly different. Thoughness mitigration reduce dmg by a fixed amount up to a threshold of the attackers power. While armor/ressistance is a flat procentege reduction. The way you're comparing em doesn't really work. Also toughness can't reduce the base dmg of a spell. Meaning thoughness higher then attacker's power is wasted. While armor, wounds, crit reduction still works against it.

Before contradicting Annaise, it would be helpful for you to understand that he is one of the most knowledgeable people ever to play the game when it comes to the combat mechanics.

It would be much more helpful for me if you would point out if I typed anything thats inccrrect. Coz i might be mistaken about some mechanics. I learned from others that might been wrong aswell. My points arn't just empty statements i actually do the math before posting. If there's something incorrect about it please let me know instead.

roadkillrobin wrote:It would be much more helpful for me if you would point out if I typed anything thats inccrrect. Coz i might be mistaken about some mechanics. I learned from others that might been wrong aswell. My points arn't just empty statements i actually do the math before posting. If there's something incorrect about it please let me know instead.

First, read annaise post you first replied to again, now read it again, now that you think that you already read it and understood it, read it again.

Done? Did you read it 3 times, fully? Sure?

Because your first reply is total nonsense to what he was talking about and i fear you did not read what he said at all.

Until we solve that, i am afraid there is nothing more that we can do to help you.

roadkillrobin wrote: It would be much more helpful for me if you would point out if I typed anything thats inccrrect. Coz i might be mistaken about some mechanics. I learned from others that might been wrong aswell. My points arn't just empty statements i actually do the math before posting. If there's something incorrect about it please let me know instead.

The point of my post is that you have to compare like with like. If I give mitigation by armor as a percentage value, then I also need to give mitigation by toughness as a percentage value so that I can compare the two.

I originally posted on this a couple of years ago on the AOR forums. The question was pretty much the same as the current one, "As a cloth healer, is it better to slot armor or toughness talis?".

It is easy to work out the effect of slotting armor talis and it is convenient to give the values as percentages.

To work out the effect of slotting toughness talis, it was necessary to work out the mitigation provided by added toughness against wide range of abilities across all the dps classes for realistic damage bonus/toughness values. The extra mitigation values were then converted to percentage values and then averaged so that they could be compared directly with the mitigation from armor percentages. The results were as stated in my post above.

Ok, but correct me if i'm wrong here. but +5str/bs/int = +1dps = +1 dmg unless it's a spell with cast time in that case you get casttime x dps right?
And toughness works in the same way but reduction instead of adding?

roadkillrobin wrote:Ok, but correct me if i'm wrong here. but +5str/bs/int = +1dps = +1 dmg unless it's a spell with cast time in that case you get casttime x dps right?
And toughness works in the same way but reduction instead of adding?

yep. Toughness works by negating an equal amount of the attacker's main stat.

You need to know the damage formula for an ability if you want to check how extra toughness will increase mitigation against that ability. For example, a level 30 Fireball has unmitigated damage of 466 + 3 x the caster's damage bonus. Assuming the damage bonus is 150 (from 750 Int), then the damage will be

damage0 = 466 + 3 x 150 = 916.

Toughness will mitigate an amount equal to 3 x toughness/5

So if the target's toughness was 150, mitigation would be

mit1 = 3 x 150/5 = 90

and the damage would then be

damage1 = 916 - 90 = 826


If the toughness were increased to 250, then mitigation would be

mit2 = 3 x 250/5 = 150

and the new damage value would be

damage2 = 916 - 150 = 766.

So adding 100 toughness has reduced the damage from 826 to 766. As a percentage, this is a 60/826 = 7.3% damage reduction.


Now compare this with Nova. At ability level 30, Nova's damage = 320 + 1.5 x caster's damage bonus

Repeating the calculations as shown above,

Damage0 = 545
Mit1 = 45
damage1 = 500
mit2 = 75
damage2 = 470

So adding 100 toughness has decreased Nova's damage by 30 hit points. This gives a percentage reduction of 30/500 = 6%.

if you are looking for the overall effectiveness of increasing toughness, you do these calculations for a range of different attacker's stats versus defender's initial toughness values for a wide range of abilities.

So pretty much the only way to get flat proecentege out of toughness would be to know the averge power of all players (in your tier) of one class.
Do a toughness check against the averege power for each offensive abillity of that class,
You also need to know the averege amount of mastery points on each skill that you test to work out the procentege.
This just seems way to progressive to even atempt to work out imo.

roadkillrobin wrote:So pretty much the only way to get flat proecentege out of toughness would be to know the averge power of all players (in your tier) of one class.
Do a toughness check against the averege power for each offensive abillity of that class,
You also need to know the averege amount of mastery points on each skill that you test to work out the procentege.
This just seems way to progressive to even atempt to work out imo.

Nah. Most people use similar builds. The dps you have to worry about will be all up around the soft cap for their main stat and have additional power stats. People post specs on the forums and you eventually realise what the hardest-hitting dps have specced in terms of damage bonus, weapon skill, and crit chance. These are the guys to worry about and if you are looking to improve your mitigation, you design your build to counter their dps.