So.. time to fix the WL?

[SilverWF]

WL still too strong to get incoming healing debuff. Even moving current outgoing heal debuff to lower position in the tree will be too much.
Why:
1. Extremely strong base damage value of abilities.
2. Core crit.increase tactic. Only 3 classes has this: WL and Black Orc + Choppa and thier crit.tactic is 2 times weaker (25% vs 50%)
3. Tanks snare at melee-DPS. "Tanks" means duration of snare is longer than it's cooldown. Only one melee-DPS has it - WL. Extra snare from pet with duartion equal to cooldown.
4. Extreme high armor debuff in the 1st tree. Extra armor debuff from pet.
5. Pounce - cheap and non-CD gap closer. Only WL has such skill in the entire game. Absolutely cheating skill. Works at 65 ft range, that with "melee problem" means ~80ft
6. In addition to #5 WL has charge and snare/root immune skills (also as another melee-DPS)

I have no idea, why such monster must receive incoming heal debuff.

I'm neutral about whether or not an incoming heal debuff is needed (I'd rather have guillotine ) but, adopting your numbering.

1. Yes the damage numbers are high but so is the AP cost and cool-down. I'm not saying it isn't a GOOD thing for WLs, but cons do exist. Also: Squishy. DPS. Class.

2. Please don't try to argue that WLs have better tactics than the average class. I would say that WLs have more dud tactics than most.

3. Defining a concept ("tank snares") JUST to say that only WLs and tanks have it seems like drawing a long bow. I can do the same and argue that only WEs have "throw snares" and only WHs have "bullet snares" which both have NO cool-downs. WLs snares EXIST sure, but they don't make the class OP.

4. Are you implying that the debuff shouldn't exist or is excessive? Maras (the quasi, semi, not-really mirror class) get the same thing. If you're implying that it's a good debuff then I certainly agree. If you're saying "it's a good debuff and WLs have too many debuffs already" then I will have to disagree.

5. Pounce is the class-defining ability. It will doubtless continued to be tinkered with the devs are happy with it (I would suggest 5 or 8s cooldown in return for increasing the range of Cleave Limb to 15 yards (or however long it needs to be in order for it fire off once you land)). It has nothing whatsoever to do with an argument about debuffs, though.

6. Yes, all MDPS classes get a charge and snare/root immunity abilities. Are you implying that WLs shouldn't? How does this contribute towards the buff/debuff argument?


The discussion is currently about adding an incoming heal debuff to WLs. Your position seems to be that WLs are OP and should receive no buffs ever. I respect that position but would encourage you to target your response to the topic of discussion rather than use a scatter-gun approach.

So, you agreed with me at 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 - why you even answered?
Or you think, if you will add a water to your answer it will weight more? Not. I see this water. No solid arguments - just water. This have no sense for me.

And you are wrong at 5. Class definition ability for WL is Lion (pet) and WL's stances, but no Pounce.

[Greatwarden]

WL still too strong to get incoming healing debuff. Even moving current outgoing heal debuff to lower position in the tree will be too much.
Why:
1. Extremely strong base damage value of abilities.
2. Core crit.increase tactic. Only 3 classes has this: WL and Black Orc + Choppa and thier crit.tactic is 2 times weaker (25% vs 50%)
3. Tanks snare at melee-DPS. "Tanks" means duration of snare is longer than it's cooldown. Only one melee-DPS has it - WL. Extra snare from pet with duartion equal to cooldown.
4. Extreme high armor debuff in the 1st tree. Extra armor debuff from pet.
5. Pounce - cheap and non-CD gap closer. Only WL has such skill in the entire game. Absolutely cheating skill. Works at 65 ft range, that with "melee problem" means ~80ft
6. In addition to #5 WL has charge and snare/root immune skills (also as another melee-DPS)

I have no idea, why such monster must receive incoming heal debuff.

I'm neutral about whether or not an incoming heal debuff is needed (I'd rather have guillotine ) but, adopting your numbering.

1. Yes the damage numbers are high but so is the AP cost and cool-down. I'm not saying it isn't a GOOD thing for WLs, but cons do exist. Also: Squishy. DPS. Class.

2. Please don't try to argue that WLs have better tactics than the average class. I would say that WLs have more dud tactics than most.

3. Defining a concept ("tank snares") JUST to say that only WLs and tanks have it seems like drawing a long bow. I can do the same and argue that only WEs have "throw snares" and only WHs have "bullet snares" which both have NO cool-downs. WLs snares EXIST sure, but they don't make the class OP.

4. Are you implying that the debuff shouldn't exist or is excessive? Maras (the quasi, semi, not-really mirror class) get the same thing. If you're implying that it's a good debuff then I certainly agree. If you're saying "it's a good debuff and WLs have too many debuffs already" then I will have to disagree.

5. Pounce is the class-defining ability. It will doubtless continued to be tinkered with the devs are happy with it (I would suggest 5 or 8s cooldown in return for increasing the range of Cleave Limb to 15 yards (or however long it needs to be in order for it fire off once you land)). It has nothing whatsoever to do with an argument about debuffs, though.

6. Yes, all MDPS classes get a charge and snare/root immunity abilities. Are you implying that WLs shouldn't? How does this contribute towards the buff/debuff argument?


The discussion is currently about adding an incoming heal debuff to WLs. Your position seems to be that WLs are OP and should receive no buffs ever. I respect that position but would encourage you to target your response to the topic of discussion rather than use a scatter-gun approach.

So, you agreed with me at 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 - why you even answered?
Or you think, if you will add a water to your answer it will weight more? Not. I see this water. No solid arguments - just water. This have no sense for me.

And you are wrong at 5. Class definition ability for WL is Lion (pet) and WL's stances, but no Pounce.

My point is that you're barking up the wrong tree. Points 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 AND 6 of your word-vomit has nothing to do with an incoming heal debuff. You would use exactly points for ANY changes to the WL. (Why should X be nerfed? Because 1 to 6. Why should Y not be buffed? Because 1 to 6.)

My NEW point is that you have poor comprehension skills. I indicated that points 1 to 6 had no relevance, actively disagreed with you on 2 and 4. (Pro-tip: search for the word "disagree".)

[talissera]

on another note, with pulling abilities working the way they do currently ignoring terrain features such as tree/wall/rocks/hillsides

Will Fetch begin ripping people from the center of the keep through the door/wall?

I feel it will be interesting to see how fetch will operate in RoR.

Oh crap. At this moment there is no 100% guarantee to pull smb: sometimes it doesn't work on 30-40ft, and now the game doesn't like pulling with more then 10ft of z-axis difference. For example month ago I could pull guys in the Ekrund scenario middle point from balconies with my magus. Now I pretty often cant pull even from hill where I have clear vision.

[Ninepaces]

11 pages of WLs wanting everything. Give the other mdps classes pounce plz.

[Scrilian]

Pouncing Slayer time

[Luth]

Silver complains about the quality of the arguments of other people.

The shitposting shown in this thread (and many other class mechanics/balancing topics...) shows clearly the need for a dedicated subforum that is strongly moderated.

11 pages of WLs wanting everything. Give the other mdps classes pounce plz.

The topic wouldn't be so long, if people stopped spamming it with useless assertions like "WLs wanting everything". Instead you could start to argument, why even a 25% incoming HD that requires the investment of 14 mastery points would be overpowered on that class.
And please no "feelings about something" anymore; the thread (and every other topic like this) is already filled with it...

[TenTonHammer]

The shitposting shown in this thread (and many other class mechanics/balancing topics...) shows clearly the need for a dedicated subforum that is strongly moderated.

At this point im just wait for wargrimmer to come in like an angry, disappointed parent and tell posters like silver to shut up and stop posting like he did in the magus thread

The topic wouldn't be so long, if people stopped spamming it with useless assertions like "WLs wanting everything". Instead you could start to argument, why even a 25% incoming HD that requires the investment of 14 mastery points would be overpowered on that class.
And please no "feelings about something" anymore; the thread (and every other topic like this) is already filled with it...

If WL's get an inc hdbuff along with their big frontload dmg the ttk on their targets will be ridiculously short and will break the class

on live wls had a bugged pounce that caused them a lot of AP problems and their burst dmg as bertin explained was not favored in the more defensive meta produced by DF/WF gear

to the T4 that RoR is going to be guided to, WL will be just fine, pounce works consistently vs live so no severe ap issues, the pet has been buffed to take less dmg from AoE and can be handled decently if put on passive even if its still a bit of a pain, and no WF/DF gear

A outgoing debuff is sufficent for the class, if your group still desperately needs one order has access to multiple other inc heal debuff options

[Luth]

A outgoing debuff is sufficent for the class, if your group still desperately needs one order has access to multiple other inc heal debuff options

That was my point at the begining. Imo an incoming HD is so vital to any group, that you weaken your "deathblow potential" seriously when you have only one DD with an incHD (that is also on a 10 second cooldown and can be ezmode groupcleansed by any dok). Against serious enemies ofc.
Any 2x WL setup is only competitive against pugs. We already had a similar situation when no incoming healdebuffs were available in T2.

Also: why should any WL spec for that outgoing HD, when he could raise the value of his armor debuff by specing further into the hunter tree. The outgoing HD could be easily delivered with less effort by any IB.

But as i wrote: lets wait for the T4 meta and see if there is still room for WLs or if we see the same 2x slayer setups over and over again.
The HD change would have nonetheless affected only the T4 WLs with a higher RR. If specced earlier they would have lost their mobility and/or DPS.

[Scrilian]

slayer setups over and over again.

You imply that that's a bad thing?

[vove]

I just wanted to comment on passive manual pet control.

You should ALWAYS control your pet manually, in any game.