Return of Reckoning

kweedko wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:49 am So what we learn:
1. Talking about facts is hiseria.
2. If some one replying to you called devs stupid than it's you call them stupid.
3. War died cause of WAR balance issues, not from absents of new content for years.
4. If you don't like them just don't read them.
5. DDZEALOTS - are imbalanced, it's time to nerf them even harder. (Throw us a bone first, then beat to death)

TBH all I've learned is that instead of making a polite post in general discussion with a question adressing the devs on what their plans for the future are, you've resorted to doomspeech, hysterical whining and victimizing yourself whenever it's pointed out to you. Maybe calm down a bit, think about the fact that this is alpha and that every single class, even hybrid dps healers, are getting massive reworks almost weekly and accept the fact that DPS Zealots are probably just further down the agenda. Now if you voiced your concerns and asked the devs what exactly they might have planned for it, instead of crying that they nerfed your class, and then even possibly posted some suggestions on it, you'd have a much different response.

You do you, but I'm just saying that behaving the way you are is only going to make people annoyed with you and take you less seriously. You can take this as an insult or something ridiculous like that and say you're being cyberbullied by mean devs and players, of course, or you can sit down and just think for a second.

Magus firestorm is not working like before with the critical tactic, you will fix it or not?

live4treasure wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:56 am think about the fact that this is alpha and that every single class, even hybrid dps healers, are getting massive reworks almost weekly and accept the fact that DPS Zealots are probably just further down the agenda. Now if you voiced your concerns and asked the devs what exactly they might have planned for it, instead of crying that they nerfed your class, and then even possibly posted some suggestions on it, you'd have a much different response.

"every single class, even hybrid dps healers, are getting massive reworks" - but not the DDZEALOTs, they got only nerfs.


"accept the fact that DPS Zealots are probably just further down the agenda. Now if you voiced your concerns and asked the devs what exactly they might have planned for it," - there was no in 2 years, so why start now.

"even possibly posted some suggestions on it" when i post first time they said it's not the right time, when i post it next time they said we don't like what you offering and banned me for posting suggestions for a month.

The thing is, there is no huge DDZEALOTS lobby in community, like all other classes and META ones especially, cause they broke the class so hard, that almost nobody want to play it. So it's never gonna be atleast a half of population of DDAMs or DOKS/WP for DDZEALOTs so it's vicious circle which nobody want to broke and YOU(abstract you) help them to keep things in this way.


And here a little quote for YOU "meta class player" that you need to remeber :

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out - Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out - Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me."

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:06 am "Satisfied with SM" means I foresee little, if any, further change to the class on RoR.

Don't mind kweedko, by the way. If he values his newfound right to talk to devs in that way more than he values actually being listened to, then that's his problem. It shouldn't come as a surprise that I don't listen to people like him.

the current placement and GW requirement make it pointless to pick up PW.
Even without the GW requirements it's a questionable pick up, cause it overlapses in the improved balance stance with WoH.
maybe change it to Perfect Balance, increase the Tooltip dmg and add a CD?

Vaul's Tempering / Wee'z Bigger still don't justify a single point spend imo.
In a WB enviroment you get immunities granted left and right.
In my experience the former version of NIDF was barely worth a pick up before.
additional 2 sec and a bad stacking armor debuff won't change it at all. Especially since you need to fire the ability as a prophylaxis, and often you get CC'd on your way to a target so you can activate it.

next issue for both versions of the ability, when you finally reached the target were also that it could be defended, go on CD, and get ready again when the fight is decided from a "CC point of view", usually after 20 seconds most warband fights are in the "cleanup" phase; so it's a 50/50 gamble if you get value out of the ability. If you don't want to take a gamble, you need to go for targets with natural low parry, means sorc, magus, zealot, healdok, shaman, range SH and pets of such or the "mirrors" of the other realm, with that move you will usually break guard distance for a short amount of time, stretch your formation and be isolated. you will be exposed to punts and probably be permasnared.

so besides that the ability was moved to a more beneficial plan layer, nothing has changed in the grand sceme from my pov.

For BO it's unreachable, cause you need 2 points for Waaaagh and nowadays the corrosponding tactic (disaster imo btw., the CD decreaser should grant a debuff that your party can't be affected again by the tactic component, same as back in WoW with BattleTrance) instead of gimping the plan management, and probably want CHM and the KD.

SM same issue with different reasons, since the defensive career tactics are yikes / non existant you are forced to pick some of the "unreliable / non-static" granting avoid tactics.
Since Drain Tactic + 2 avoid tactics and WW outvalue Vaul's Tempering, I wouldn't pick it up cause again you don't have the points, and it's not 100% reliable.

so overall picking up the CD decreasers is a must have, while picking up the immunity isn't granted by the reasons I mentioned, it's too situational and barely reliable.

overall it's a step in the right direction to streamline the skilltrees, which makes it a lot easier for low RR classes to stay somewhat competitve in warbands. for a working version of WB BO you needed RR60, for a perfect spec RR70, glad that this had changed.

kweedko wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:15 am "every single class, even hybrid dps healers, are getting massive reworks" - but not the DDZEALOTs, they got only nerfs.

There's two parts to what I think about this. One is facepalming at tone taken with devs, the other is wondering if people can grasp the concept of "you cannot please everyone".

I won't comment on the AP thing as I can't seem to stop laughing.

I've never liked the concept of DPS RP/Zealot. I have no problems with DPS WP/DoK given their mechanic, and while DPS AM/Shammy on live was lulzworthy here I've seen some incredible results. Then again I'm very old school. Tanks should tank, healers should heal, DPS should DPS while being aware of tanks and healers and not make life difficult.

In that light, I'm biased. To me, Zealot/Runepriest does not bring anything DPS wise I would want in SC or WB play not done better by other classes. Part of that is no doubt due to the devs having clear concepts of what they want each class to be able to due instead of the badly designed mess Mythic implemented in the first place. But part of it is also that I don't think it's worthwhile trying to balance things around a handful of people's wishes.

You may or may not be a 'good' DDZealot. (Not impressed with your videos.) But regardless of that, if something is imbalanced for the majority of players and is used by a small number to make a viable meta, it's still unbalanced. The WL changes are a bitter pill for a lot of people but it is more balanced.

Should there be a discussion about that, sure. If the discussion ends up with a blunt declaration of 'nope' then I can see how that's frustrating, but if the dev team goes with a plan that alienates a large number of players of a class due to the changes then people should be able to offer reasons why it's bad that aren't :

1) I want to solo oRvR doing meta and I can't because my class was never designed for it
2) I want to meta something and I get destroyed by premades in SC waah
3) People insult me because I'm using the class in a way that's not valuable to the team so plz don't nerf
3) Anything that's a hard counter to the results of my unintended use of <tactic,skill,etc> is nerf

It's not like you're the only one who is struggling with changes. My main is a magus and my orderside toon is a WL so I don't wanna hear about nerfs.

The second part to what I think is that a lot of people on here have clearly never run an independent project and had to deal with hundreds of people complaining about everything with no logic and very little appreciation, and for the life of me I can't figure out why people seem to think insults and petty jabs work better. You can't make everyone happy. Every change is going to piss off someone. Given a choice between "achieve our vision and piss off 1% of playerbase" and "do nothing and piss off 25% of playerbase" which is best?

If you're proposing something and most players are like 'lol no' and the devs are like 'that is dumb' then instead of assuming everyone else is a fool maybe you should rethink your own position.

I've had to retool my magus play style several times. It's a process.

WAR didn't die to lack of new content. There's been no new content for crap in games like Champions Online or AO for years. It died because of horrible balance, it died because there was no vision for how classes would interact and most of all it died because the new content they added was staggeringly bad such as pets.

ragafury wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:19 am

Spoiler:

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:06 am "Satisfied with SM" means I foresee little, if any, further change to the class on RoR.

Don't mind kweedko, by the way. If he values his newfound right to talk to devs in that way more than he values actually being listened to, then that's his problem. It shouldn't come as a surprise that I don't listen to people like him.

the current placement and GW requirement make it pointless to pick up PW.
Even without the GW requirements it's a questionable pick up, cause it overlapses in the improved balance stance with WoH.
maybe change it to Perfect Balance, increase the Tooltip dmg and add a CD?

Vaul's Tempering / Wee'z Bigger still don't justify a single point spend imo.
In a WB enviroment you get immunities granted left and right.
In my experience the former version of NIDF was barely worth a pick up before.
additional 2 sec and a bad stacking armor debuff won't change it at all. Especially since you need to fire the ability as a prophylaxis, and often you get CC'd on your way to a target so you can activate it.

next issue for both versions of the ability, when you finally reached the target were also that it could be defended, go on CD, and get ready again when the fight is decided from a "CC point of view", usually after 20 seconds most warband fights are in the "cleanup" phase; so it's a 50/50 gamble if you get value out of the ability. If you don't want to take a gamble, you need to go for targets with natural low parry, means sorc, magus, zealot, healdok, shaman, range SH and pets of such or the "mirrors" of the other realm, with that move you will usually break guard distance for a short amount of time, stretch your formation and be isolated. you will be exposed to punts and probably be permasnared.

so besides that the ability was moved to a more beneficial plan layer, nothing has changed in the grand sceme from my pov.

For BO it's unreachable, cause you need 2 points for Waaaagh and nowadays the corrosponding tactic (disaster imo btw., the CD decreaser should grant a debuff that your party can't be affected again by the tactic component, same as back in WoW with BattleTrance) instead of gimping the plan management, and probably want CHM and the KD.

SM same issue with different reasons, since the defensive career tactics are yikes / non existant you are forced to pick some of the "unreliable / non-static" granting avoid tactics.
Since Drain Tactic + 2 avoid tactics and WW outvalue Vaul's Tempering, I wouldn't pick it up cause again you don't have the points, and it's not 100% reliable.

so overall picking up the CD decreasers is a must have, while picking up the immunity isn't granted by the reasons I mentioned, it's too situational and barely reliable.

overall it's a step in the right direction to streamline the skilltrees, which makes it a lot easier for low RR classes to stay somewhat competitve in warbands. for a working version of WB BO you needed RR60, for a perfect spec RR70, glad that this had changed.

you don't need to hit target for VT cc immune buff. it's clicky buff.
it's unreliable. first encounter 7sec immune might be best use. after that it's random luck.
but, like you said, after 20sec, battle is aftermath. it means first 20sec is huge part.
and 7sec CC immune among that 20sec is also huge.
it's line breaker. formation scatter.

i only tested it against pug. it's working with mdps duo.
push together, target anything you want. chase them to death.
no stagger, punt, root can stop u.
after 7sec? enemy cc skill is also on CD.
now the random luck starts. get CC or not.

big punt was most boring part as victim.( although i enjoy it as BG, i'm hypocrite )
now i have little counter. that's enough reason for me to pick it up.

you can laugh at CC. like u laugh at their mere scratch.
good to be tank
oh you have to use it b4 first encounter.
timing needs some practice.

k, had the old Wee'z bigger in mind which required a target.

spell makes that way sense.

guess you loose CHM and KD than for RvR WB gameplay.

Think the Waaaagh changes are still bit meh and PB makes this way barely sense.

Maybe gettin YMM makes up for it.

Mentioned it in advice but since i don't see it here :

Client Changelog 19th August

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:11 pm - The cooldown of Spellbreaker is now 15 seconds.(The tooltip will mismatch, I decided this last minute.)

This patch it changed to 25 seconds cooldown.

Rynocerous wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:16 am
I've never liked the concept of DPS RP/Zealot. I'm very old school. Tanks should tank, healers should heal, DPS should DPS while being aware of tanks and healers and not make life difficult.

So you think class in DPS spec shouldn't be a DPS. But WP/DOK Shamy/AM is fine, it's double standards you know.

Rynocerous wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:16 am It's not like you're the only one who is struggling with changes. My main is a magus and my orderside toon is a WL so I don't wanna hear about nerfs.

There is an opinion, that WL and Maguses who complain, but keep playing, just not good enough for this classes. Maybe you are one of them mate, so go roll a meta you softy.

Rynocerous wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:16 am Given a choice between "achieve our vision and piss off 1% of playerbase" and "do nothing and piss off 25% of playerbase" which is best?

Yeah sure i just miss a shitshtorm about gamebreaking ritual of Zealot which make Order unplayable so hard, that everybody roll a Zealot, so lets mindlessly nerf that OP skill, who give a frog about this 1% lets make it 0% an then no one will complain.

For me that just a another change from a man with this quote "Notes:I didn't include DPS RP/Zealot because I honestly don't know much about them and what it would take to really make them work."

"Who will watch the watchmen?" if not we are.

Since several pages you are telling us, that you need more than 50ap/gcd to work as a dd zealot, no?