Return of Reckoning

NSKaneda wrote: I'm not comparing Engies to BWs/Sorcs or SWs/SHs because engie/magi mechanic is completely different, their skills are different and their class gameplay is different. I'm comparing Engie to Magus. Only.

Of course you are. When you say "X class can kite" you are immediately comparing them to the other RDPS classes who have the potential to kite. And we were actually responding to someone saying "Engi is best class at kiting" so obviously we are comparing them, have you not followed the thread?

What you just describe was doting enemies whilst running away. "Burst" in your little equation refers to spending 2-3 seconds completely stationary to channel an attack. Compared to what every other ranged dps class has Engi is the worst at kiting.

peterthepan3 wrote:

NSKaneda wrote:

peterthepan3 wrote:That's called running away and surviving; not kiting. Kiting is being able to do effective damage while on the move - which an engineer and magus simply can't.

Right, because all your dots are there just for pretty pictures...


I'm sorry, I duelled as engie and against them, I've seen what the class can do. If Karast would say "engiez can't kite" I'd believe him simply because he's the best I've seen. Until that time I remain sceptical

Key words: effective damage. There's a difference between kiting your enemies in a duel via the use of snares/kds/kbs, and being able to damage effectively - whilst moving.

I duel too, what's your point? Has no bearing on the topic at hand.

I'd agree that engie kiting isn't kiting in the sense that they do effective dmg and have great kite tools. Engineers have escape and utility tools. It usually takes an incredible amount of time, skill and good fortune to stay ahead of and slowly DoT down a melee/tank. If you do stay out of melee range, by the time they realize the are going to lose, they often just pot and sprint away. I've "kited" plenty on my engie and it's like opening a can of soup with a steak knife, you probably won't go hungry but you might cut your thumb off. Engie "kiting" is pretty fun though. It makes my heart go boom boom.

NSKaneda wrote:

Earthpac wrote:DoT's & turrets break root & mine stagger. Also a melee slow doesn't help you kite melee dps who will just slow you right back. If they're kiting you using DoT's they can't CC you with mine & root. Do you not realise what you are comparing this to, a class with actual ranged slows who can RAGNED ATTACK WHILST MOVING with a ranged knockdown to boot.

Root, run away, call back turret, dot, dot, dot, burst or run, stun, run some more, call turret, dot, dot, burst, detaunt, run, snare+kb, run, call back turret, dot, dot, dot, napalm, mine, burst --> kiting.

And if you're in a party then after 1st stun I expect guard and at least one MDPS near me because, well, teamplay.

I'm not comparing Engies to BWs/Sorcs or SWs/SHs because engie/magi mechanic is completely different, their skills are different and their class gameplay is different. I'm comparing Engie to Magus. Only.

2 Words: Immunities / Cooldowns

As many people keep saying 1v1 and group are completely different. If everything looked at 1v1 dps healers would need to be nerfed into the ground.

Engi's do not kite in group situations we are not SW / SH that can dps while moving. The only instants we have are dots, and hipshot and our dots are low damage, high duration. They get gutted by cleansing and low tick damage. If an engi is running it is not dps'ing, and is effectively cc'd. All our dps really comes from stand / spam. That means snipe / gunblasts followed up with focus fire / hip shot, or if you go grenade firebomb. For the magneteers that means lightning rod / friction burn.

BW / Sorc have it a bit better since their dot spec has a bit better spike, even though it suffers from cleansing just as much, they have the additional group utility of heal debuffs / proc buffs, and they have a few more options for instant abilities for quick / mobile dps.

I know it is frustrating to die to a turret or long range snipe, but those deaths can be avoid with a little care. There are a lot of people I can just not kill even with the changes because they are very wary of LOS, and because they always have good group support. It is pointless for me to even try with a few people because they mitigate my damage into the ground before guard is even taken into account. That doesn't even cover defensive morale meta in groups.

Engi's are not kiters, it's not how we are built or how we work, and groups don't work with stationary dps.

The Magus and the Engi have long needed some luv, but the range is too much. Reel in the range a bit and it works.

Tankbeardz wrote:2 Words: Immunities / Cooldowns

Hence "run some more" (for distance / time / to get closer to your tank)

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Karast has spoken, I shut up now

NSKaneda wrote:

Tankbeardz wrote:2 Words: Immunities / Cooldowns

Hence "run some more" (for distance / time / to get closer to your tank)

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Karast has spoken, I shut up now

Why would you tank a engineer of say a slayer? An engineer with a tank is a luxery, noty a given.

NSKaneda wrote:

Tankbeardz wrote:2 Words: Immunities / Cooldowns

Hence "run some more" (for distance / time / to get closer to your tank)

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Karast has spoken, I shut up now

Fair enough...but in a group setting, or in the lakes, there is almost zero chance your CC will be effective if you are being hunted down by another group. Hell...if you dot someone up you render a good chunk of your own CC useless. That's not even factoring the CC being belted out by your supporting cast or other randoms. Magus and Engi are amazing 1v1 if specced for it...They are even good at it even without speccing. I have always run a rift/ST spec...yes i know it's an odd combo but it works until you run into someone good at 1v1 (Karast has totally obliterated me 1v1 in the lakes for sure when I was more active).

First kiting not equal chasing or doing dmg on the move, kiting is keeping distance and avoiding damage from melee attacks and keep on dpsing, kiting is defence not offence strategy. (sw spaming lileath arrow in push on your zerg it's not kiting at all)
In terms of big fight, one zerg, can kite the other zerg to advantageous position to keep or choke point, wc, etc not starting close or positional combat, we see that every day.

Second - i'm not against this changes, my point is eng/mag was good before the experiment, now they even better.

And the third "If tomorrow the devs say "the Zealot is gonna have a 100 % damage buff"" and this will break the balance, making zeal "OP omg pliz nerf now" i'll gonna be first who gonna whine about it. But relax it's never gonna be like that cause, well ddzeals are not the priority, and maybe we get some changes one of the last ones, cause we are, no bunch of whiny, crying carebears who rading the forums every day, we got so tight population of DDZEALOTs so i can call it - One Man Army.

Three BWs/SWs and a healer hold a flag against all comers and nobody bats an eye. Three engineers and a WP hold a flag and everyone loses their mind!