2H Tanks: 9001th thread edition

[Idrinth]

Either way that loss of armor is HUGE. Ill illustrate:

I think I have about 2500 armor. I think its ~67%? Lets just assume those numbers for now.
Dropping 33% of that I go down to ~ 1600 armor and it puts me ~ 45%ish I think.

So look at 100 damage incoming.

PRE-FO: 100 * (1-67%) = 33 net damage.
With FO: 100 * (1-45%) = 55 net damage.

Increase %? 55/33= 67%.

You forgot the usual armor penetration, that will reduce the absolute damage gain by a lot. I'd say 40% is doable at the moment for pretty much all physical damage dealers.

Pre-FO: 100*(1-0.67*0.6) ~ 60
Post-FO: 100*(1-0.45*0.6) ~ 73

Increase: 73/60 ~ 21%

This is a way smaller increase with even higher armor penetration - and assuming it works atm, most physical damage dealers will stack weaponskill.

Yes, but then you addi n armor pots or buffs.... Then you also factor in toughness etc etc.

Even still. Its pretty clear the 33% loss of armor = MORE damage incoming than the buff you receive. Where as other classes dont "take" more damage they just heal less.

Thats a little of the issue. When a DPS AM is sitting back casting on a target, he isnt "at risk" of getting nuked by running 25% more damage and 20% less healing.

The Tank running FO gives himself 15% more damage but by almost any calculations will end up taking MORE than 15% damage AND has to be on the front lines to do that too....

It doesnt seem quite "equivalent" you know?

Thats why the "loss" for this tactic should almost be somewhere else instead... Such as a reduction of block % (making it not a pro vs con for 2h)

Its almost like.... The DPS AM doesnt NEED to heal to deal damage but the 2H Knight WILL take damage trying to deal damage.....

With armorbuffs, we'd also have absolute armordebuffs, won't really change the results a lot tbh.

I do not disagree with you, that FO is currently not quite well in regards to gain and loss, I just disagree with your numbers.
From my calculations a 20% damage gain with a 30% armor loss should be fine, with yours, we'd beat some dps classes in burst if you'd try to up the damage to match the loss.

Also FO is NOT twohanded exclusive, it's a dps-tank-tactic, not necesarily a twohanded one. Could we get back to topic?

[th3gatekeeper]

From my calculations a 20% damage gain with a 30% armor loss should be fine, with yours, we'd beat some dps classes in burst if you'd try to up the damage to match the loss.

Last comment, who says inc damage and outgoing damage need to be equal? Even @ 20%/30% its still a crap mechanic because you also have to factor in what else you had to give up to slot this (like Toughness)... So it costs more than just 30% armor to get this. Either toughness - which is HUGE when you have guard on someone - where armor doesnt even matter then... Or Runefang - giving massive damage increase via STR/WS along with parry via WS and Initiative, Or 10% crit for the party.... So basically back to toughness and losing 140+ toughness (forget what it is @ 35) plus 30% armor for 20% damage..... Still crap to me IMO.

Could we get back to topic?

Yup. The topic is why do 2H tanks suck compared to SnB... And talking about how to rectify that.

To go back to what Azarael suggested about somehow making the "punt" from 2h much more viable.

I still suggest that if this is the goal. That 2H tank is the "anti-guard" then Super Punt + a 'Knock Down/Prone' at the end is the best bet. Making the feat that increases the range of punt require a 2H makings this pretty lethal if you can super punt a tank off a healer or MDPS enabling the team to blow them up.

The "% Increase" of damage this would be for the group on that ONE target would well be worth it. The issue right now is eventhough super punt is awesome, you still have to DPS the target down so even if you to super punt off a tank, its not that difficult for him to just run back in range of guard. Also only certain maps in certain locations can really benefit from this... SO its VERY situational.

I dont know of other ways to make the 2H better aside from distinguishing them from SnB by the damage they deal...

[Ninepaces]

I didn't read a single post in this thread.

All I'm going to say is.. when you're standing in a doorway with 10 melee hitting you, taking 3 lines of dots and 20 doombolts a second you're going to want that shield.

[roadkillrobin]

@th3gatekeeper
Toughness has no effect on guard dmg

@Ninepaces If your standing in the middle of a doorway in a keep as a tank you're doing it subjectivly wrong tbh.
all you do is giving all their ranged classes and anchor for their targeted AoE's Like Firey Blast or Shattered Shaddws, etz. And that means everyone close to you take unesecary AoE dmg. You know what you wanna do, you wanna stand behind the dps to the side, facing away from em and using HTL. That way their ranged dps need to get close to even fire a shot.

[TenTonHammer]

2h tanks can't use HTL.....

[roadkillrobin]

Ehm, i never said they could.

[Wrathson]

My main alt is a 2hand bork and i can say quite happily that you all just don't know how to build and play a 2hand tank, sorry but i do just fine and i still only have average level talismans and non of the new blue/purple gear.

[roadkillrobin]

lol Kagaz, from what i remember when you were in Freebooterz you never guarded anyone, you never followed the group. And you always ran of doing your own thing even when in group.
I wouldn't advice anyone to use that a good example of how to play a 2hander Black Orc.

[Idrinth]

From my calculations a 20% damage gain with a 30% armor loss should be fine, with yours, we'd beat some dps classes in burst if you'd try to up the damage to match the loss.

Last comment, who says inc damage and outgoing damage need to be equal? Even @ 20%/30% its still a crap mechanic because you also have to factor in what else you had to give up to slot this (like Toughness)... So it costs more than just 30% armor to get this. Either toughness - which is HUGE when you have guard on someone - where armor doesnt even matter then... Or Runefang - giving massive damage increase via STR/WS along with parry via WS and Initiative, Or 10% crit for the party.... So basically back to toughness and losing 140+ toughness (forget what it is @ 35) plus 30% armor for 20% damage..... Still crap to me IMO.

As mentioned before, toughness also doesn't work against guard. The reason I try "balancing" FO for similar incoming aand outgoing damage is, that it's 1) a small change, that is not tht risky 2) an improvement 3) Numbers that can easily be understood.

Could we get back to topic?

Yup. The topic is why do 2H tanks suck compared to SnB... And talking about how to rectify that.

We are talking about fixing FO, a dps-tactic. not anything related to weapon choice.

I still suggest that if this is the goal. That 2H tank is the "anti-guard" then Super Punt + a 'Knock Down/Prone' at the end is the best bet. Making the feat that increases the range of punt require a 2H makings this pretty lethal if you can super punt a tank off a healer or MDPS enabling the team to blow them up.

Punts are not provided equally, but I agree, a better kick range for 2-handed weapons would be nice.

The "% Increase" of damage this would be for the group on that ONE target would well be worth it. The issue right now is eventhough super punt is awesome, you still have to DPS the target down so even if you to super punt off a tank, its not that difficult for him to just run back in range of guard. Also only certain maps in certain locations can really benefit from this... SO its VERY situational.

Most maps have a way to prevent quick returns and that is where I'd prefer to buff 2-handed tanks. What about giving them a speed boost, so even when they're punted away, they can get back faster. My original proposal put that into the Juggernaut tactic.
[/quote]I dont know of other ways to make the 2H better aside from distinguishing them from SnB by the damage they deal...[/quote]
You could up some abilities effects(taunts, challenge) because a twohanded tank is more threatening, you could make their buffs better, you could make their debuffs better...

[Jaycub]

My main alt is a 2hand bork and i can say quite happily that you all just don't know how to build and play a 2hand tank, sorry but i do just fine and i still only have average level talismans and non of the new blue/purple gear.

I didn't think I would see a post that would top the one page 3 but here it is :^)