Return of Reckoning

Well you are wrong

Takes multiple gcds to remove it provided you are in range and approx one gcd to apply
It is an order exclusive buff and gives you higher HPs then the enemy destruction team
It is an WP exclusive so you add something every dok will envy

I'd say it is great

Bozzax wrote:Well you are wrong

6 gcds to remove it

Would you be so kind and write a complete argument? Where i am wrong and where you have the 6 GCDs from etc.?

Landaren wrote:2. Decrease the range of Cleansing Power/ Efficient Patching to 30-45 feet and move it to 3 pts tactic
Why does this have anything to do with melee healing?

4. Sigmar's Grace is prolly to op if it becomes common and would be more reasonable with a 20-30s duration instead of an hour
Except Marauders remove double the amount of wounds that sigmar's grace gives and has no cooldown? Blastwave removes the same amount as sigmar's grace. There are plenty of counters to this already.

Not sure where to begin

IMO group cleanse is far to OP and needs a nerf anyway. Making them melee range would beef melee healers case.

Order also has (more or less) the same wounds debuffs. Don't give me the no one specs them speech. It only tells how insanely op broken the other abilities of those classes are.

Luth wrote:

Bozzax wrote:Well you are wrong

6 gcds to remove it

Would you be so kind and write a complete argument? Where i am wrong and where you have the 6 GCDs from etc.?

Affects your group but I changed it to multiple just in case you are fewer then 6

Bozzax wrote:

Luth wrote:

Bozzax wrote:Well you are wrong

6 gcds to remove it

Would you be so kind and write a complete argument? Where i am wrong and where you have the 6 GCDs from etc.?

Affects your group but I changed it to multiple just in case you are fewer then 6

OK, which leads me to the next question: Did you actually read my post?

It is explained why the wounds debuff is only good on the paper, but not in the real game...
In case it is not clear, here is another post:

Luth wrote:

bloodi wrote:While i agree that is quite underwhelming i think the same issues i mentioned with the hypotetical challenge tactic apply.

Its up there it is at least a choice between Martyrs blessing and the wounds buff, if it was any lower it would just be a no brainer for every salvation Wp. And for them having to reapply them is a much minor issue.

I don't get it; which choice? This wasn't about any build. My post was about a single 14 mastery points ability.
My point is: It is a bad ability for a mastery path as it is and that it is so high up in the path makes it just worse.

I would absolutely suggest anyone to take any of the various wounds lininments in T4 instead of this ability, as you can't count on it. If you count on it, you will have your wounds debuffed in no time after the fight started (as already stated above) to your base value again.

And as i also wrote, no WP has usually the time to waste a global cooldown to reapply this buff in the middle of a fight, when it will be removed again by the mentioned two classes after their 5 second cooldown of "Sever blessing" ran out.

If he wants to keep this buff active on all group members over the whole duration of the fight, he would have to literally spam it against said classes.

I don't want the ability to be moved from it's place in the mastery path; it just should not be easily removed by some classes core abilities on the first hit because a WP has to invest heavily into a mastery path for it.
Imo the ability should be way shorter (to prevent a single WP buffing a whole warband), but it's type should be "buff" instead of "blessing".

No one cares if the wounds buff is applied to 6 people or 100, if it is removed in the first second the melee train reaches a buffed target.

Bozzax wrote:1. Empowered Transfer / Grace of Sigmar add a “on hit” AOE x heal over 5s for group members within 100 feet

2. Decrease the range of Cleansing Power/ Efficient Patching to 30-45 feet and move it to 3 pts tactic

3. Terrifying Aura/Intimidating Repent unchanged

(4. Sigmar's Grace is prolly to op if it becomes common and would be more reasonable with a 20-30s duration instead of an hour)

You're failing to solve the core problems.

1) is the wrong way to go, Sigmar's Grace and Empowered Transfer are already mandatory tactics. The focus should be on preventing them from being absolute requirements just to be a melee healer.

2) is an attempt to nerf Salvation WP. If you start bringing Salvation WP into this, all you will have are Salvation players seeing a threat and shouting you down. I don't like group cleanse at all, but far more people care about preserving something that's strong than trying to keep something that sucks sucky.

3) is suicide. I'm sorry, but it is. If you do not do anything about the requirement frontline WP has on Guard, you can make all the other changes you want and you will accomplish crap all, because frontliners will still die.

Seriously, just go and try it. I really wonder how many of you can seriously say that you've tried running frontline WP without Guard against any team not full of hare-brained people and can honestly say you think that it's anything but woefully underpowered. It's actually embarrassing how much more easy to play (and much more powerful) Salvation WP is.

4) It's already been commented on why Sigmar's Grace is trash - it gets shattered first and you'd better believe it's going to be shattered often as well. Buffhead makes it obvious when it's present so it's not staying on for more than 2 seconds. If you enjoy applying a stationary 2s cast every 7 seconds that's cool, but I don't. And it doesn't matter if it's not immediately shattered from everyone on the team - as long as a train can shatter it from the target they're attacking, that Wounds buff is USELESS.

Luth wrote:prayer commentary

Using the Prayers as stances would be an interesting mechanic and something to strongly consider if/when we acquire more power over the client. Otherwise, I don't think the flexibility will exist to make these classes perform each of their desired roles without inter-role balance issues.

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Now, to make a general comment, it seems we have wide acknowledgement of the problem and yet a lack of agreement on direction.

With regard to general direction, some people believe the class should be pushed more towards DPS than towards healing.

With regard to the problem of being unable to heal while out of range of a target, some people believe in increased CC or charges to deal with that problem, others in the ability to heal competently in the backline with resource generated from the frontline.

I'm going to advise once again that the thread focus, for now, on making 2h WP viable for a healing slot and not a DPS slot. Face it - right now it doesn't have any slot, and trying to make a class with heals into a solid, competitive DPS in Warhammer without it being OP and while preserving the ability to play it as a full backline healer is a task that's far beyond this community right now. 2h WP can be justifiably made a powerful healer (base) while having the ability to deal damage (positive) at the cost of a negative hybrid mechanic (needing to attack periodically to gain resource / heal). If you try to make it into a DPS, which it's clearly not equipped to be, you're going to need major skill reworks as well as a major rethink of its healing from both melee and ranged sources, otherwise you're going to fall into being a 50/50 or 60/40 hybrid, and as I've said before - nobody wants split hybrids.

Any solution also has to avoid giving the WP too much sustainability in the frontline, where it can use the skills it has which simultaneously attack and deal damage, otherwise we end up with a healing DPS tank.

The original concept of WP is a clear guideline of where to go - a resource pool which is built by attacking and reduced by healing. If the attack/heal transition or vice versa is too risky or too slow, then by all means, deal with that.

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Another thing to point out here is that theorycrafting isn't the be all and end all of everything. If you really want to know how a solution performs, it needs to be tested privately.

The only solution I could think of is something like removing life taps and replacing them with a direct heal on melee attack that scales with willpower. But I'd rather not see it changed.

Exactly. Heal on damage(Lifetap) has too many side issues. I'll say it again: Heal on attack. Make it a proc like the mara monstro stance. But I wouldnt make it scale with willpower. We'd had the stat mix issue again. Good return for each Grace tree point. Also add some tactic like chosen avalanche to deal with cc issues.

Not having ever played a Warrior Priest, I'm trying to restrain myself from jumping into this conversation. That being said, I just wanted to put forward two things:

1. On principle, from purely a design perspective, I see no reason why any lifetap should have a healing component less than 100% of damage dealt, even if it has a guaranteed minimum value. Compared to the AM's Balance Essence which only has to get through resistances, Sigmar's Radiance has to get through armor AND has a lower healing value based on the tooltip. This isn't exactly offset by the fact that it's a group heal, IMO.
If it were up to me, SR would heal X + 100% damage base, with GoS bumping it up to X+Y + 150% damage. If it needs a tradeoff, then we can decrease the fury gain to 30 once we get more client control.

2. I'm working on a set redesign and split for all classes, which will hopefully help address some of the itemization problems for the WP. It doesn't alleviate the problem that there are just too many stats to care about, but it will hopefully make sure some are more represented than they currently are.

As a side note, making SR deal spirit damage would be a solid step to alleviating some of the MAD, by essentially removing the need for WS from a Grace/Salvation spec.

SR dealing spirit dmg is what it should be, as every other WP life tap ability deals spirit dmg. Completely agree with Genisaurus, although heal on attack instead on damage would be even better imho. Also the auras working like stances sounds interesting.